Argument with Farmer: WWYD situation

[swmorse]

@StormyDay. This might give you a smile about your flowers. I bought a house on a little more than an acre. It had about 3 big oak trees on one side. When I first bought it I had a “landscaper” leave his card in my mailbox. So I had him mow for me. The area under the trees was all weeds so I told him to go ahead and mow under them

Spring comes along and I buy a lot of caladium bulbs and plant under the trees. As a few ego by I see the bulbs starting to sprout. Later no caladiums. This happens a couple more times

I see Pete the “landscaper” one day and ask him if he’s been mowing under the trees. He says yes so I tell him to stop. The caladiums came up and we’re beautiful. Silly me thought that a “landscaper” would have realized that I had planted something there and wouldn’t have mowed. Lesson learned

Sorry about your flowers I bet they’ll come back great

[MsM]

Crossbow label https://www.csd28j.org/cms/lib/OR50000628/Centricity/Domain/96/Crossbow%20Herbicide%20Label.pdf

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@Tarlo_Farm, you have made a number of misstatements about herbicides.

The active ingredient in Roundup is glyphosate.

Crossbow is a mixture of two active ingredients, 2,4-D and triclopyr BEE.

The term “amine” in herbicides refers simply to the chemical form of an herbicide, It is not the name of any particular specific herbicide active ingredient although the word may appear in the name, e.g. 2,4-D Amine. The herbicide is 2,4-D, “amine” just tells you the chemical form of the 2,4-D. Triclopyr and dicamba, for example, also come in an amine form.

@Bluey, the problem with Agent Orange, a mixture of 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D, was the presence of dioxins as contaminants (manufacturing by-products) in the 2,4,5-T. As you say, the two herbicides themselves were not the problem.

[sascha]

@Tarlo_Farm

Crossbow is a woody herbicide, but not a glyphosate? Another ester?

Crossbow - 2,4-D butoxyethyl ester and triclopyr butoxyethyl ester
Roundup is a different compound - acid blah blah, something.

This is pretty easy to look up.

Crossbow is selective (will not kill grass)
Roundup is indiscriminate and will kill everything including grass and plants EXCEPT those that are pupose-bred to withstand its effects.

[BrendaJane]

I’d be quite pissed about the herbacide. I am not above using any, but very rarely and only in rare occasions (like poison Ivy, in lieu of a goat) I would not want my ‘yard’ sprayed with unknown compounds!

[goodhors]

Tarlo_Farm You are a danger to yourself and others, not knowing your herbicides!! They each are made to do specific things when applied correctly. Do you even read the labels and precautions for mixing and applying, proper clothing and gloves?? Getting two or three such products confused is going to hurt you and possibly others, water systems on down the road. You don’t seem to have a clue what you are dealing with!!

Glyphosate/Roundup is a foliage killer, any and all plant life that is not naturally immune to it. Grass, weeds, it does not care. Good new is that it starts disapating in 24 hours.

The 2-4 D products are broadleaf weed killers. They do not bother various grasses. They DO leave residue on the plants, in the soil. Part of the reason for not using horse manure in your garden, the residue will harm/kill plants, even after composting.

There are other chemicals in herbicides not named here, which can also be long term lasting, leaving residue in the soil or plants. Repeated use of the glyphosates on the same areas can change the soil to acidic.

Having unknown chemicals sprayed on your land is rather horrifying to learn!! Could be any weird mix of stuff he had laying around!! OP has her hands full with this nutjob. I hope she can call and ask what he used, get an answer. Not sure testing after several days will tell her much.

The $1000 claim is kind of odd. Prices of both fertilizer and herbicides have jumped. I am looking at double the cost of fertilizing now as I paid last year. Might go higher if I have to wait very long. Herbicides have tripled at TSC for the 5 gallon containers.

I would not be paying him anything, and would counter his claim with costs his sneaky visit created. And being neighborly now is out of the picture. I agree that he is trying to bully OP into letting him use the land, sell any hay he makes. You can bet he won’t make any good hay on shares at the proper time, it will be junk. So glad we never had these kind of issues to deal with! We had “other things” but nothing like this. Spend the $1000 on a good lawyer, get farmer stopped right away and warned off the property.

[Tarlo_Farm]

Got it! Got confused with my brand names and chemical names. Off to fix. Thanks! Though to further confuse homeowners, Scotts is now selling “Roundup For Lawns” with 2,4-D. Don’t confuse the two!

https://turf.umn.edu/news/what-roundup-lawns

[DQHubby]

Yes, from the 2,4 d fact sheet, ’ 2,4-D kills broadleaf weeds but not most grasses .’

[EssexFells]

@StormyDay

So I’m sorry, but you won’t be able to hay it this year’.

All I’m saying is that since you are taking a legalistic approach about who’s right/wrong, about whether he had a legal right to do this, then you should read the contract very carefully (get a copy from the neighbor if you don’t have it) to understand what are the specific termination provisions, and look up in your state code what it says if anything about farm leases. His not showing up one year probably does not constitute termination of the contract. And the above statement about not haying it this year does not constitute termination of the contract. If you were in my state, given all of your statements thus far, you would still have a legally binding contract in place. So before you rest on legal grounds to feel right and justified, take the time to make sure that ground is rock solid.

Qualifying your direction not to hay the field with the words “this year” could be interpreted by a reasonable person (and especially by a bully) that “next year” is still on the table, once the crabgrass situation is resolved.

Personally, I think everything in the fertilizer and herbicde aisle smells like roundup. If it was roundup, your field would already be yellow. It’s pretty far-fetched to think that he decided to eradicate a pasture to plant corn on short notice. Seed orders are placed the year prior, and in that case he would have tilled the field in the late fall / very early spring to minimze compaction - it takes multiple tillings to convert a well-establisheds pasture full of crabgrass before the field is ready for corn. I mean, sure, maybe he’s incompetent and it just doing it all wrong, but I think this falls under the theory “when you hear hoofbeats behind you, it’s probably not a zebra.” He probably applied herbicide and fertilizer in order to improve the hayfield, because you weren’t explicit that the contract is terminated, and because he’s a pushy fellow who would take advantage of the new owner who wasn’t being super explicit.

PS you would spend more on a lawyer than the damages are worth (unless he did in fact kill the entire pasture, in which case you’d have enough damages to justify)

[anon40672407]

@StormyDay

I guess usually I probably would just pay it and say, well that sucked, move on. But it just feels like when I rains it pours right now.

Yeah, I’d be unhappy with the guy completely.

1. You HAD a conversation prior to his trespass where you identified yourself as the new owner. He KNOWS full well that the contract to lease the field does not transfer automatically.
2. You had work done that you WANTED done, and he messed that up (which means, it costs you extra money).
3. If it were me, I would not want herbicide where I planned to put horses, and I wouldn’t be interested in paying for fertilizer where I was putting a barn, so there’s no benefit to you.

So, he caused you a financial loss, and wants to be paid for stuff you didn’t want? I’d say no. Let him claim he put $1000 worth of chemicals on. You claim right back that he did $2000 worth of damage to the work already outlined in the field.

If he wants to pretend this is all about his financial loss, then it’s all about your financial loss. If he understands HIS loss he has to understand YOUR loss as well, and the answer is clear. And he doesn’t get to pout about it going forward.

[Ghazzu]

I think the OP might be well advised to do 2 things–request a copy of said lease and contact a lawyer conversant with agricultural statutes in her state, because there is a fair amount of variability.
I just did a brief meander through google and saw Iowa mentioned specifically as an exception wrt some aspects, so I wouldn’t use it as a likely gudepost, but best to be sure what you’re dealing with.

But I still think that the evidence the guy ran over posts and flagging means he knew damned well you didn’t intend for him to be there.

[EssexFells]

yup, I know the rules vary from state to state. OP needs to actually look at the contract’s termination language and the rules in her state.

[anon40672407]

@EssexFells

I know the rules vary from state to state

OK, I rescind (temporarily and awaiting further information) my comment #1. " He KNOWS full well that the contract to lease the field does not transfer automatically." (googley-face emoji).

[SusanO]

What you want to bet it is a verbal contract. I agree - read the state laws. I can’t imagine that many states have the law like Iowa does. That would be crazy - how do you terminate a lease that you do not know exists after you buy a property? Would the Iowa law create some kind of notation that would show up on a title search?

[3PonyFarm]

Sorry if this has been asked previously, but does your state require a pesticide applicator’s license to spray, especially on someone else’s property. If so, very specific records must be kept on what was sprayed and where. There can be substantial penalties for improper use.

[Ghazzu]

In some states, there is a requirement to file a copy of the contract with one or another state or local agency in order for it to be considered valid.

[Jealoushe]

That’s so crazy cheap! Here that would be at least $8k from the farmer to have them use it.

[Jealoushe]

That’s what all the farmers here plant on off hay seasons.

[StormyDay]

@EssexFells at this point I’m pretty sure it was not roundup since my grass has not died. I also don’t think he put down fertilizer, but I know he used a herbicide. I don’t know if it’s just me, but 2,4 D has a really distinct smell to it and so does roundup, but it’s a very different smell to me.

I do have a family lawyer friend who would most likely help free of charge but I really don’t want to get to that. I’ll only go that way if he continues to trespass onto the property.

@Ghazzu I will if necessary contact an ag lawyer, I’m hoping I can resolve the problem without needing legal representation but we will see.

@SusanO there has to be something in writing due to the land use tax requirement, but it can be as simple as a receipt showing they got paid for it. I would not be shocked if there was no contract, mainly because the Owner A kept everything and we got all of it. Like, down the the seed packets for the shrubs in the front yard. Every time anything was serviced, every time any work was done, they kept records. And the only record I have that mentions him is a 2020 renewal for the land use tax info showing a receipt that he paid them.

@3PonyFarm I don’t believe so, I’m in Virginia.

@Jealoushe I also thought $500 was cheap but, they do get a tax credit from it and they provided no chemicals, seed, etc. However, I know he got 4 cuttings last year and the first and second were horse quality. So I’d bet he got about 15k worth of hay off of the field, if I’m doing my math right.

[sascha]

@Jealoushe

That’s what all the farmers here plant on off hay seasons.

Really? Only straight alfalfa goes into the corn, beans, wheat rotation around here, and not every year.

Hay fields for “dry” hay (grasses and alfalfa/grass mixes) tend not to get rotated very often.