I heard about a clinic to be held in my area (SoCal) so I came out to check it out. We have amazing clinicians fly in from all over the world so I figured we were in for a treat. I showed up and it was NOT the type of dressage clinic that I expected. First of all there wasn’t even a dressage court set up. I managed to sit through about 20 minutes before shaking my head and heading out. Last weekend we had Charlotte Dujardin in our neck of the woods for goodness sake.
I went home and did some googling and I found some very interesting info here. My question is how do people see that and think it’s dressage?!?
There are FANTASTIC trainers at the clinic site (Los Angeles Equestrian Center) and many more trainers in Southern California. I will say the clinic did not have a high attendance and rider that I saw looked kind but misguided. I could just see the front legs getting a pounding because of the balance always being on the forehand. How in the world is nose to the ground with a flat back a good goal for dressage?!
isn’t the ultimate goal COLLECTION?
I’m disappointed and will obviously do better research before attending clinics in the future. The bio connected to the event stated that he was an FEI trainer that had shown in the Florida circuit. I cannot imagine that actually being accurate based on today’s experience.
How does someone like this gain a following in the dressage community? A quick google search certainly set me straight.
Has anyone had a different experience from me? Did I miss something?
YAWN…another art2ride bashing thread…it’s been done to death…
new to COTH. Was looking forward to some insight.
I see it’s a sore subject lol.
It’s new to me too! I’ve never read any threads on here before, but it’s easy to miss stuff.
Cam you explain more of what you saw? Did you stay long enough to get the gist of their ideas?
Edited to add link https://art2ride.com/about-us/
Basically it seemed like the entire goal was to get the horse to drop the head completely to the ground as if gravity is taking it. The strides became stilted. At one point he instructed a rider to not even touch the reins in a transition from walk to trot because it the contact didn’t matter in the transition. That was the kicker for me.
Everything happened only on a circle which seemed very boring.
It really looked like the ultimate goal was to get the horse to actually drop the contact instead of taking it. Not inspiring or what I’ve heard or seen from the trainers actually getting horses and riders up the levels. I know that isn’t the only goal for people but dressage should be about training towards reaching the top of the training scale IMO.
I watched some of his videos once. My impression was he’d taken one valid idea, stretching to the bit, and made it the only thing he does. And he doesn’t really have a technique for making horses reach with an open poll.
Actively stretching to the bit and tracking up behind can be a useful gymnastic for a horse that is going around upside down or over bent.
But it’s just one gymnastic. It’s not a whole training program.
And I’m not sure his CV claims are all legit.
I googled it, not my cup of tea. I have heard of people who follow his techniques, but mostly younger girls with an alternativ look at dressage.
He does seem to have a considerable following here.
The ability to stretch a horse down, as in the stretchy trot, is a valuable tool, but not if the horse is on the forehand.
I looked at some of the pictures, you better be riding on low dust footing! Those noses are practically scraping the ground. OP I thought you were exaggerating until I saw the pics. It’s like if Western Pleasure and Dressage had an ugly baby. But I don’t think the whole low head thing makes for a comfortable ride, so I am biased.
I’m not for or against, all I know is what I read on their site. But I want to speak to the comment about the whole lesson being on the circle. That has happened to me or other riders in many clinics. One in particular with Tracy Lert (sp?) was very good. When a rider left the circle she reamed her out! But the point of the exercise was to get rhythm and pace in one direction and then when Tracy told you to change the circle you had to maintain the exact cadence in the new circle. It was harder than I thought it would be.
Riding on a circle for a bit isn’t such a huge problem and yes I’ve seen that a fair amount even with big name trainers. A rut in one circle after 4 or so riders had already gone and no footprints anywhere else in the arena was a bit disconcerting
Briefly looked at one of the videos, reminded me of Western Pleasure.
I think I might have brought this up the last time there was an Art2Ride thread, but it should be noted that riding with the head that far down is a valid technique to rehab a very poorly schooled/poorly muscled horse, or when first starting to ride a youngster. Basically you take advantage of the horse’s anatomy; with the neck down like that the nuchal ligament mechanically raises the horse’s back, which takes the strain off of weak muscles. But of course the end goal is to gradually raise the neck as the horse gets stronger. And it takes acres of tact to be able to keep the horse in a level balance while asking for that kind of stretch.
I’m not crazy on the Art2Ride school of thought, but I do know people who got into Art2Ride and then used it as a springboard to really start learning about dressage, so…eh?
Oh jeez. I’ve not seen earlier threads about this either. But after looking at that link, thanks Gestalt, I realize this is the clown that a beginner at my last barn (thankfully I’ve moved on) was following while she was"training" her horse. She asked me for help one day and I told her honestly that I couldn’t help her unless she wanted to start from scratch. I told her (as kindly as possible) that all she was doing was training her horse to back off the bit and go around on his forehand. She was making an excellent western pleasure horse that was trotting too fast. It was horrible to watch. After 15 minutes of fruitless discussion, she dismissed my 40 years of experience with a wave of her hand and said, “I guess we just have a different philosophy of dressage.” Holy carp that stuck in my craw. I don’t know whatever happened to her but I hope she successfully sold that poor horse. SMH
This guy is in the same league (IMHO) as Linda Parelli. People should run screaming in the other direction.
Maybe a start, but just looking at the hand position of the rider in the video, looked more Western Pleasure than dressage. Looking at DR 101.6 In all work, even at the halt, the horse must be “on the bit”. A horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training…accepting the bridle with light and consistent soft submissive contact."
And THAT is why I don’t think it is comfortable. Maybe if I were a better rider I’d love it, but I don’t feel that I can aid in maintaining balance well in a stretchy trot. If Bella does it on her own on a loose rein, fine, she is normally balanced if she’s doing her own thing. But I don’t have the finesse to ask for that and then help her find and keep balance like I can with more contact and a higher head carriage. I’ll take it if she offers it and is still using herself well, but it is not something I ask for if working alone since I don’t feel I have the skill set to make it a useful exercise for either horse or rider.
When I see more extreme carriages like this I can’t help but think many riders might not be executing correctly.
The stretch is a test of correct training - a way of proving that the horse is seeking the contact. I don’t expect it from most horses as soon as I get on, but rather later in the ride. I also don’t expect it at all from horses that haven’t solidified their understanding of contact - like most 3 and 4 year olds, and most training level horses. I also don’t ‘work’ on the stretch - I work on the engagement and seeking the bit, and then when I’m pretty sure we’ve got it, the stretch will confirm or dissuade that notion.
I don’t get how this is in any way related to that.
We use the stretch into contact with impulsion as a first step in a high headed tight horse like mine or on a horse that has been poorly trained. But you don’t drill it on a circle for an hour.
It does take a lot of finesse to ask for stretch, follow it down, and keep it if the horse rises a half inch above the bit.
Also the head does not need to be below the withers. It does need an open poll. The A2R videos I saw had very low heads, tucked polls, and no contact. Also not a lot of attention to impulsion.
Done correctly the stretch to contact is an effective rehab or early days gymnastic. It can be used as a break from riding collected during a schooling session. It isn’t meant to be how a finished horse moves. Once the stretch over the back is confirmed you can start raising the head and working towards collection.
It is foundational becausevthe main point is that the neck is telescoping into willing contact. But this is very hard for some horses and almost impossible for most beginner riders to feel and achieve.
Also some horses stretch into the hand more through lateral work at the walk.
I think A2R has just fixated on one gymnastic isn’t moving past it and is is using it wrong.
When I first came back to dressage after so many years not near horses, I found this guy and he seemed to know what he was talking about. I even made it down to one of his clinics in Poway.
He’s a little like NP, going around calling himself a master. And he takes in people who are misguided or ignorant and don’t know better.
Luckily, I have since seen the reality and have grown immensely since then.
The stretching portion is great. I stretch my horse every ride. For a couple minutes. At the end. NOT FOR THE ENTIRE RIDE.
I think he even knows that you shouldn’t stretch the entire ride. I haven’t seen video of him riding in a long time but I’m pretty sure he gets past the stretching. But for some reason, he never shares that knowledge with anybody else.
One other thing to add - IIRC correctly, he doesn’t differentiate between a good stretch and a bad stretch, which is what makes this teaching “method” particularly useless and potentially bad.
