Article in The Atlantic - Do horses know what they’re doing when they compete?

[AwiUsdi]

This is from the Atlantic. Short but interesting, and the author talked to and quoted David O’Connor. I was following along with interest but I’m not sure I agree with this (quoted by a PhD psychologist, not DOC): “The Olympic disciplines, in particular, are not conducive to deep relationships between horse and rider. They’re dominated by a “speed dating” system where business-driven owners seek to optimize matches for specific competitions, rather than lifetimes…”

Hopefully this is a share link: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/05/kentucky-derby-horse-cognition/678287/?gift=Khv_iO5eGtEmzM5p60tibeNK4BBAiA_punqukSpBppk&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

[red_mares]

I didn’t read it thoroughly. It sounded mostly like crap and a bit like it was funded by PETA.

Horses learn what their job is. Do they comprehend every detail? Of course not.

[2DogsFarm]

Interesting read.
But I’ll argue that point about “Speed Dating”.
I read a lot of interviews with BN riders who have long-term relationships with the horses they compete.
As for this:
“They may even [attach emotional memories to specific human voices”

I moved my Hunter to a barn in a nearby state.
We’d been competing fairly often in the past, but it had been at least 5yrs since we had shown.
Trainer at the barn had an Equine Massage Therapist visit.
My normally not vocal TB nickered to this woman.
Turned out she’d done the Ingate at many of the shows we’d done.
What his “emotional memory” was, I’ll never know, but something happened that made him glad to see her

[OverandOnward]

I think that the critical survival role of herd status and being stronger than other horses is built in to a horse’s ability to relate to the idea of competition. Of winners and losers.

Do they know about awards, skills cred, the investment the humans have made in their performance? No.

Do they latch on to the excitement, the vibe, positively or negatively? Absolutely.

Horses can be very competitive with each other. I have been absolutely convinced that a jumper I used to ride was 100% out to best the other jumpers. He picked up that this was a competition between horses, even if he understood nothing about rankings and prizes.

Top ranked show horses can be quite the big personality. They seem to know it’s all about them.

More ordinary show horses seem to be well aware when they perform well and everyone is pleased with them. Some act as if “the rules” are suspended now, they can do as they please, and get all the treats they want.

And of course some horses can be overwhelmed by the competitive process. Maybe some veterans are just tuned out. And others newer to showing just can’t cope with the high energy and all of the input of a showgrounds. Some people are also not built for competitive sport, and I think the same range of adaptations can be found in animals as well.

[AwiUsdi]

@red_mares

I didn’t read it thoroughly. It sounded mostly like crap and a bit like it was funded by PETA.

Certainly not a PETA slant. Atlantic contributors are thoughtful and this article reflects that. It also reflects (IMO) that despite that thoughtfulness those not involved with horses don’t often have the ability to understand the partnership that develops between two wholly different species. This author tried, at least, and offered several links to studies that asked that or similar questions. I’d be curious to know Dr. Hoff’s pre-PhD research equine experience.

ETA - Dr. Hoff made the statement I quoted, but also had some more positive insights as well.

[clanter]

the same question can be presented about dogs and humans, but nevertheless most people who are just bystanders never have a clue, all they see is the wasted money that could be (well more than likely Should Be) spent on their “pet” projects

[2DogsFarm]

This thread from the Dressage forum:

Charlotte Dujardin Masterclass Secret Agent Part One

So… A 5yr Plan isn’t forming a relationship?
On Part 2 of the vids she mentions at least 5-6 more years of training this horse

[axl]

I thought there was quite a conflation of disciplines. I would say (offhand, no stats) that Olympic discipline horses at the highest levels are seldom catch rides - even when USET was running everything and owners made horses available for the Team, That didn’t mean they only had 2-3 rides on that horse prior.

****I do know that this happened on a couple of occasions, but it certainly was not the norm then and is even less likely to happen today.

However, we all know that in horse racing that it is very common for a jockey to be on the horse for the first time, and there is always the desire to get a great jockey for a big race. The owners/trainers that keep a Stewart (sp?) Elliot on their hot Derby prospect instead of going after (for example) John V or one of the Ortiz brothers are the exceptions.

[Texarkana]

I am disappointed by Sue McDonnell’s quotes. I don’t know if the article took them out of context inadvertently, but it came across as very anti-racing. I agree a lot of racing is an adrenaline response, but I don’t agree it’s “terror.” A terrified horses behaves quite differently than an excited one.

Horses understand their jobs. And I fully agree with DOC: you can appreciate a horse’s ability to enjoy their job once you see horses not enjoying their jobs.

The idea that the Olympic levels are like “speed dating” is just ill informed. In 2024, no one is “catch riding” their Olympic mount. Sure, there are riders who are more or less involved in the daily care of their partner, but all of these upper level riders have some sort of established relationship with their mount.

[jvanrens]

Agreed. Going from what my daughter has told me about working with the Standardbreds, including training up young ones, they will go with company relaxed and jogging, but when you start training them to step up their speed if they hear or see another horse coming up behind them, they will grab onto the bit an want to go faster, which isn’t a problem normally when jogging slowly. Some of them can be really tricky to rate if you’re doing a slow training mile with one and someone blows past going a faster mile because they want to go too.

Just like watching a heard of horses out in the field deciding to go for a run. Not all of the runs start as a spook, most of the times it’s a couple of young ones wanting to go for a run and there’s always a couple that take it seriously even if they are not racing bred. They’ll dig in and go!

[red_mares]

When someone starts going on about horses in “terror” it starts sounding like someone has spent too much time talking to HSUS, ASPCA & PETA.

[Scribbler]

Horses absolutely understand racing in a group, it’s hardwired to get out in front.

[red_mares]

The big, loud crowd; the tight space; and the close presence of unfamiliar animals they can smell but not see prime racehorses to react with adrenaline and fear when the starting bell sounds, she said.

I haven’t read propaganda like this in a while. It’s Grade A. Apparently the thoughtful contributors of the Atlantic have never heard of Pavlov. The bell is an aural clue. The thing about the crowds always gets me anyway. Anyone who has Saddlebreds or Hackneys has seen horses that are not afraid of crowds. These twits should have been to show last year when the fire alarm went off during a 12 & under walk trot class. Nothing, absolutely nothing happened. Why would it? It was a half dozen horses who have BTDT, by this time in their lives, a fire alarm is nothing.

[jvanrens]

You forgot Reining and Cutting and Working Cowhorses too. The crowds at the big shows can be damned energized.

[red_mares]

I’ve not been to those shows so I don’t know. But I’m sure those horses feed off it the way ours do.

[jvanrens]

I don’t know if they feed off it, for the most part they seem focused on their job, but definitely not terrified by the noise.

If noise scared racehorses, I’d think some would quit coming up the stretch in front of the grandstands when there are big crowds. Usually the ones that do are often for fitness or medical reasons I’m sure, at least that is what we’ve found with our racehorses.

[Walk_N_Gal88]

Specifics of what they’re doing? Highly doubtful. Know that they have a job and when/where to do it? Absolutely! We’ve had several over the years who we showed in local shows, so nothing near Olympic level, who absolutely knew when they were competing versus playing around at a show. Same horse, rider, tack, show environment, routine, etc. Completely different attitudes when we (the riders) just wanted to go to a show and play, enjoying the time with friends versus when we the riders wanted to go and actually compete to win. They always had a little extra pep in their steps, much more of a watchful attitude, and always worked better

[OverandOnward]

Sometimes they know when they are going to a show. Have been around barns where the horses got increasingly excited in the last week. When the big trailer was pulled up to the front a few days before leaving, they were on their toes every time they saw it.

If some horses went and a few stayed behind, those that stayed had to be moved to where they could not see and hopefully not hear much of the loading. If they had to watch the loading, they would start racing around their pens and neighing when they weren’t taken for their turn to load.

I would have thought that it was just the horsey instinct not to separate from the herd. But they didn’t do that for other trips, just shows.

I wonder – in group turnout, do they talk with each other about shows?

[Tha_Ridge]

@OverandOnward

I wonder – in group turnout, do they talk with each other about shows?

My animal communicator, if you believe in such a thing, has confirmed that they do. And sometimes what they think of as winning is very different than what we think!

[OverandOnward]

@Tha_Ridge

My animal communicator, if you believe in such a thing, has confirmed that they do. And sometimes what they think of as winning is very different than what we think!

Elaborate, if you don’t mind.

Of course I don’t believe in it at all, but also I consume it regardless !!!

Many years ago a friend who feels that she’s an animal communicator, but doesn’t do it professionally, told me that some horses understand everything people say perfectly. Even about things having nothing to do with their own lives and settings. Not all horses, but some do, especially those that have had a lot of training and are around people a great deal.

At the time I thought “that’s fanciful”. But over the years since she put that into my head, I’ve become convinced that it’s probably true!