At canter swapping in back before breaking to trot

[Borngrace]

Hello - I am trying to figure out how concerned I should be about something a horse we are thinking about buying does.

He is green 5yr. 17h OTTB. He is built like a tank. He has not been ridden regularly in the past month.

In the indoor he broke frequently at the canter and right before each break he cross cantered in the back. And immediately broke to the trot.

How concerning is this? What could it mean? If we decide to go forward what should we have vet pay attention to in PPE??

thank you in advance

[Bristol_Bay]

I vote sore hocks. But he might be worth the maintenance. Mine was.

[nycequestrian]

You said that he’s 17hh and 5 years old and has not been ridden regularly. Without seeing video, my first guess is that he is loosing his balance, swapping behind, and then becomes even more unbalanced when he cross canters so he breaks to the trot. While it may be a physical problem (and I would definitely ask the vet about it to make sure), my guess is that its a green baby problem.

[Frivian]

Another vote for green/weakness. My horse used to do this on the lunge frequently. He also had a very unbalanced canter. Once his canter got stronger, he stopped doing it.

[PoohLP]

[QUOTE=nycequestrian;7751274]
You said that he’s 17hh and 5 years old and has not been ridden regularly. Without seeing video, my first guess is that he is loosing his balance, swapping behind, and then becomes even more unbalanced when he cross canters so he breaks to the trot. While it may be a physical problem (and I would definitely ask the vet about it to make sure), my guess is that its a green baby problem.[/QUOTE]

This. Big babies take a while to learn how to use their legs and get their balance. My horse had this problem to the right, but with lots of trot work and canter work on the lunge, he is getting much better and figuring out how to fix it when he loses his back end. What has help most, beyond time and maturing both physically and mentally, is getting hm moving really forward on the lunge and making him figure out how to balance himself and not switch, and when he does switch, how to fix it without breaking.

[Borngrace]

Thanks for replies – I am staring obsessively at his videos. He swaps right before he is asked for a downward transition too. Both directions.

[M_Owen]

I vote green horse combined with big baby with the others. Downward transitions take strength and coordination, so it may be lack of those two.

However, during the vetting in addition to the usual exrays behind, have the vet check the sacroilliac area. Can’t exray, but palpation of that area may be enough to see if there is pain, or worst case scenario the area can be ultra-sounded.

[Abbie.S]

How much is said horse and how realistic is it that you could get a thorough PPE done with a full set of hock x-rays done before you say “yes” to him?

Sometimes, the purchase price is so low that a thorough PPE would cost as much as the horse itself.

However, if you are considering doing anything with this horse that will load the hocks: jumping, eventing, anything above 2nd level dressage, I’d want to know fairly surely that those hocks look good, especially on a big ol’ TB that’s already raced. I don’t know if I’d feel comfortable just assuming it’s a green baby thing.

[Borngrace]

I figure the price of the horse is the price of the horse big or small and the price of the vet check is worth the money (within reason - not being crazy and getting every angle possible) because if I discover issues that affect long term soundness or big $$ down the road even a free horse becomes very expensive. This is a horse we would have for many years and who would be worked hard and jumped regularly (not right away obviously, he is young, big and not remotely fit)

[M_Owen]

so agre with Borngrace on the PPE regardless of price! I have a friend who bought an inexpensive green horse. They did a somewhat superficial PPE (minimal exrays) and assumed that lack of hind end strength and greenness accounted for so-so canter. 18 months later, owner has spent more than 3X the purchase price on vet bills for hocks, stifles, and back (as a result of hock/ stifle issues) and horse STILL hasn’t jumped more than an x-rail and spends as much time rehabbing as actually being rideable (was purchased with the goal to jump 2’6"-2’9" range). Unless you are willing to live with potential physical limitations, don’t skimp on the PPE (not that OP was planning to, just a general caution).

[SportArab]

I have a mare that initially switched behind on the longe each time I asked for a downward transition.

But the more she worked on the longe, the smoother she became at transitioning to the trot. I just figured she hadn’t figured out how to balance herself yet.

[netg]

[QUOTE=Borngrace;7751436]
I figure the price of the horse is the price of the horse big or small and the price of the vet check is worth the money (within reason - not being crazy and getting every angle possible) because if I discover issues that affect long term soundness or big $$ down the road even a free horse becomes very expensive. This is a horse we would have for many years and who would be worked hard and jumped regularly (not right away obviously, he is young, big and not remotely fit)[/QUOTE]

I absolutely love your attitude about wanting the horse for the long run and that it’s worth ensuring there aren’t problems.

It could be nothing or a big problem. My filly used to change leads every few strides when ridden in a circle - and it was green imbalance. She’s shorter, but was still gangly and uncoordinated at the time. Sounds like this horse gets unbalanced, changes, then breaks because he doesn’t want to be unbalanced. It’s actually a tendency I like if he’s just green and unfit. My TB has a tendency to take off bucking each time he gets unbalanced because it ticks him off (which is also why he LOVES dressage, and why I won’t jump him - because if his rider messes up a distance he also gets angry.) I want a horse to want balance, but simply going to a lower gait instead of overreacting is a nice tendency.

[PoohLP]

[QUOTE=Borngrace;7751353]
Thanks for replies – I am staring obsessively at his videos. He swaps right before he is asked for a downward transition too. Both directions.[/QUOTE]

I would guess, based on this and your earlier statements, that he hasn’t yet learned how to squat, bend through his hocks and bring his hind legs up under himself - rather he sort of throws his hind end side to side (so it feels a little like cantering on an unbalanced washing machine). Then, when you ask for the down transition, he sort of falls apart because he just doesn’t know where to put his hind end. Is that correct? If so, lots and lots and lots of transitions and lots of trot work to get him working off his hind end will help a lot.

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=PoohLP;7751748]
I would guess, based on this and your earlier statements, that he hasn’t yet learned how to squat, bend through his hocks and bring his hind legs up under himself - rather he sort of throws his hind end side to side (so it feels a little like cantering on an unbalanced washing machine). Then, when you ask for the down transition, he sort of falls apart because he just doesn’t know where to put his hind end. Is that correct? If so, lots and lots and lots of transitions and lots of trot work to get him working off his hind end will help a lot.[/QUOTE]

I posted on your eventing thread but this is what mine was doing – I call it “fishtailing.” (It’s not uncomfortable, just strung out behind and his back end weaved from side to side a little – he sort of went from “haunches a little in” to “haunches a little out” – his canter is very smooth). It feels like what a trailer without sway bars does when a semi passes in the rear. When they do it too much they can lose the lead. It’s just because what we do in a ring is (1) slow and (2) tight circles for them. It’s hard! They have to learn to pull the hind end underneath, get the front end up and canter slowly on an upward trajectory while constantly turning. Totally new muscles for many of them.

[Borngrace]

No - he is actually quite comfortable at the canter – well aside from the whole giraffe thing and throwing his head around to avoid the bit and having to use his body . I think so much is unknown, he was very up – is that him? Is it age? Is it not being ridden? He doesn’t have enough retraining locked in to sit in a field for a month and not have to start back from scratch. But yes, in the part where if you let him get all strung out behind I will guarantee he can’t hold himself together and will break.

[hasahorse]

I bought an older fellow who did the same thing. It wasn’t greenness for him, but just being totally unfit. He is 18 hands and that is a lot of body to move around. He had spent a good portion of the last 2 years turned out in a field. We have spent 3 months doing lots of up and down transitions, circles, serpentines, etc., working on getting his hind end strong and getting his balance back. The difference between now and the day I bought him is unbelievable and we still have a way to go. Just keep working at it. It takes time, but they do get better.

[butiwantedapony]

I have a horse that does this. He is 10 y/o TB, also a big boy at 17 hands and built like a tank. He had an extensive race career and is pretty green still. I was pretty concerned for a bit because he could NOT hold a canter without swapping behind , both ways. We have built strength slowly and he now rarely does it - only when he gets tense. His canter itself is LOVELY. We have not had him x-rayed or ultrasounds as he is going well now, didn’t respond at all to a bute trial, and will be only used for light work - jumping no bigger than 2’6" and infrequently.

I would not jump to it being a lameness issue, but would definitely speak with your vet about it and decide if it’s worth doing any further evaluation with.

[SolarFlare]

[QUOTE=M. Owen;7751364]
I vote green horse combined with big baby with the others. Downward transitions take strength and coordination, so it may be lack of those two.

However, during the vetting in addition to the usual exrays behind, have the vet check the sacroilliac area. Can’t exray, but palpation of that area may be enough to see if there is pain, or worst case scenario the area can be ultra-sounded.[/QUOTE]

I’ll go with M.Owen on this one - my OTTB was the same. Nearly every time I asked for trot from the canter, he would swap out behind. Also would sometimes swap while cantering (especially left) coming out of the short end of the ring, and it was definitely worse if I leaned in at all. After he built up more muscle and fitness, it improved a lot. I didn’t lunge him much, but he also swapped out fairly frequently on the lunge.

However - just recently we discovered he did have an SI issue after all. He got injected and is currently back into work. The vet just gave us the go-ahead to start jumping again. He feels much more even, pushes off harder from the hind left, and is tracking up better. Also gone is the bulging shoulder and tendency to lean hard at the canter in one direction. I’m hoping once we start jumping more that his jump will straighten out too. He had started to throw his legs to the side (always left) when jumping instead of lifting them higher.

[Borngrace]

Just as an update – had PPE on Tuesday. Did the xrays. Had Vet pay particular attention to hocks, stifle, SI, back to see if there was a physical issue that was contributing. He found nothing. Said super super (2 supers) sound. Good back, good feet. He did not cross canter at all during PPE - so we are going forward. Thanks so much for all advice. I truly appreciate it. It helped offset worry that something was definitely wrong, but also gave me concrete things to ask about!