At the end of my tether with my dog- open to any advice! HELP!

Having owned 3 GSD’s, I agree w/all of the posts saying that you have a very smart reactive dog. In the immortal words of Hilda Gurney (to me, unfortunately:o), “she’s a Ferrari and you’re riding (training) her like a dump truck”. (THAT was a fun clinic:D)

You MUST find a trainer who knows shepherds, and I agree w/ the idea of contacting schutzhund trainers and clubs for their reccommendations. Get this help ASAP–this dog can only get worse (WAY worse). GSDs absolutely MUST have a job, be it obed., search and rescue, etc. Always remember what these dogs excell at–schutzhund, police work, tracking, S and R…HARD high-pressure jobs. GSDs are masters of the “what’s wrong with this picture?” game, and notice very small behavioral changes or non-reactions from handlers or other dogs, and they may react to them, just cuz its something to do, and woe betide the trainer who doesn’t respond!

I agree w/everyone above that exercise alone, esp. free-for-all fetching, isn’t the answer for her problems, since there is no discipline or problem solving in it.

If she is a good retriever, another thing you could do is contact a retriever field trial or hunting test trainer-lots of those in the UK, I believe-dogs must wait for an object (real birds, fake birds, bumpers-you can use bumpers exclusively)to drop and then are sent on command, and graduate to double and triple retrieves (3 “birds” thrown in succession- dog watches or “marks” each fall, then is sent for each in succession), and blind retrieves, where dog doesn’t see “bird” fall and is guided by whistle commands and hand signals to “dead bird”–up to 300 yds. away. Retrievers must learn to “honor” another dog at the line-meaning they must sit quietly at handler’s side while another dog works. Its great dog work, and she must learn patience and focus, plus its fuuuun!

DONT let her go before you through any door or gate.

DONT let her pass you on the way up or down stairs–you go up/down FIRST. Squish her against the wall if she tries to ignore this.

DONT let her walk ahead of you on walks. I am adamant about this with every young dog I train-dog in front=the boss, and dont let anyone tell you differently…its not easy w/any GSD to have them TRULY in correct position (tip of nose at the outside seam of your jeans)–they like to be just A LITTLE (to a lot) ahead of you-this is a big deal to them, and if you win this battle, you are on your way to winning the war of “I mean what I say”.

As to collars, I know exactly what I’d do w/her right off the bat-high-collar w/a well-fitted small link choke collar and a soft thin 4-6 ft. lead, shortened so that when she’s at your side in CORRECT position (above) and your arm is down and relaxed (NOT at your waist-this isn’t competitive obed. but control, and YES it is just like Cesar M, but I’ve been at it lots longer than him;), and IT WORKS), the lead is loose-no pressure at all, but its very short-probably only 4-6 in. of lead under the snap. If you’re unfamiliar w/high-collaring, its when you move the choke collar up right behind her head, right behind the jaw and behind the skull-you can also use a thin slip lead for this. When you control the head you control the dog, and this is now how we walk on lead, forever until she EARNS some freedom–My dogs w/o issues are often allowed out in front–they must prove to me they listen, and then I leave them alone.

I know people in the UK are very vocal about collars some believe to be cruel, but they are like bits-it all depends on the hands connected to them. I dont think a prong is your best option, though, in this situation, at least not without very experienced supervision. I use them when needed, usually to “retrain” a dog’s neck or when I have “little/BIG” or “BIG/old”, (little person/BIG DOG or BIG DOG/old person) but if you deliver pain when she’s at mid-launch, you may end up with a worse problem-a now fearful reactive dog who, being a GSD, may equate that correction w/other dogs-not what you want. That said, if you work with a trainer who wants to use the prong, I say do it-it has changed many bad dogs into good dogs–but it should be used as a step to getting her to a plain buckle collar–that is your goal.

I do believe you can learn from Cesar Milan about gaining and keeping attention. I do not view what he does as punishment. That said, I agree with some here that some people try to copy what he does can get themselves in trouble-its not easy teaching people!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daventry

If you have time, sit down and watch a bunch of Cesar Millan episodes. They do teach you a lot regarding canine behavior. .
[/quote
:

To the OP, please don’t use CM methods with this dog. They will teach you how to punish your dog, but not much else about what TO teach her or how to teach it to her so that she learns what you want her to

ditto. His show teaches you NOTHING about canine behavior because he has it all wrong- he still goes with long-discredited theories about dominance, pack behavior, and pack leadership. I mean really, who still alpha-rolls dogs? or thinks poking them with your paw (hand) makes dogs think they are being bitten? only people who don’t know anything about dogs. If you watch the show with the sound turned off and just carefully watch the dog’s body language you will learn a lot about how wrong his approach is.
His whole approach to dogs is to bully, punish, and terrify dogs until they “shut down” and stop doing much of anything- what he calls “calm submissive” actually means “traumatized into a state of learned helplessness”. Which unfortunately some dog owners think means their dog is “well behaved”.

Don’t want to turn this into a pro/anti-CM trainwreck…

But I would second this advice.

Cesar has exceptional timing and a way with dogs and so has been able to use techniques that many cannot get away with (and that many consider incorrect based on more recent advancements in the study of animal/dog behavior). However, his techniques for dealing with “red zone dogs” (something CM people might call your dog) are not something that should be attempted by others.

As I said before, the main thing to take from CM in your case is: project confidence and don’t let your dog make you her servant. He is very correct that your energy can affect your dog greatly. Beyond that, his harsher techniques can backfire.

yes, CM has a big disclaimer “do not try this at home” on his show that I really wish more people would pay attention to.

re: spaying. I wouldn’t recommend it. Often females get MORE aggressive after spaying. I certainly wouldn’t BREED this dog, but I’d skip the spaying for a few years while you work with the dog.

I think its great that the OP is trying so hard ot do right by her dog. I m no expert, but I know that GSDs are the epitome of a “working dog”, and barring exceptions have a real drive to work. If you can give her a job somehow, that may help. Sounds like you are pretty good about excercise, but she may need more focused excecise (like leash walks on a heel, sessions of obediance training, some intensive ball playing etc). I agree no off leash - that is an accident waiting to happen.

Good luck, and you may want to change trainers to one that specializes in GSDs.

God lord! :rolleyes: This is as bad as when Monty Roberts came on to the scene and you either had supporters or the SPCA mentality. I’m always amazed how people either go overboard one way or the other.

I should have explained myself better - the underlying theme on all of the CM shows is that the family dog has taken over the rule of the house, the owners show no dominance or assertiveness…and contrary to popular believe, it can be done without “terrifying” an animal. No different than how a mom would teach her pups.

[QUOTE=Daventry;5688494]
I should have explained myself better - the underlying theme on all of the CM shows is that the family dog has taken over the rule of the house, [/QUOTE]

I understood you. I also disagree, strongly, with you. CM is all about dominance and punishment. And the dominance model has been debunked for a long long time.

This dog isn’t looking to rule the house, she gets along fine with the people she lives with. Her problem is other dogs, but not all other dogs either. A porblem with dogs does not equal trouble with people.

It would be a guess, but the issues this dog has will not be improved by the person handling her rolling her or choking her or otherwise “showing her who’s boss”.

As mentioned, the dominance/alpha theory has been widely debunked. Here’s an excerpt of a great book that discusses the current thinking:

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/26/136497064/the-new-science-of-understanding-dog-behavior

The old theory was based on the behavior of captive wolf packs consisting of unrelated individuals. Most wild wolf packs are cooperative family groups where the “alphas” (if such a thing exists, and many scientist don’t believe it does) are the mother and father. They don’t alpha roll each other or worry about who goes first where. Also, modern feral dogs don’t form packs. So they don’t have alphas.

The current thinking is that dogs are aggressive or bite out of fear or pain, not out of any desire to take over or dominate–even with regards to other dogs. Eliminate your dog’s fear (or pain, but that’s not the case with the OP) and you remove the aggression. Punish the dog, and you only increase their fear making them more and more reactive.

But the positive reinforcement vs. dominance theory debates on dog boards make the rollkur discussions here look like a ladies tea party! :smiley:

So I would think the OP’s best bet is to do what others suggested and find a trainer who has experience both with dogs who are reactive to other dogs and with GSDs. If they’ve had real world success, that’s worth a lot more than either academic studies or TV shows!

Most dog behaviorists and good trainers discredit Cesar Milan completely. I agree that maybe the schutzhund or someone who is well versed with GSD’s would be a good option. But even then, you should check them out. I’ve known of trainers who have credentials with training protection/police dogs that can be too dominant and even crude. Check out this website www.Leerburg.com. They have quite alot of experience with GSD’s, Malinois, etc. and probably have connections in Europe. You could certainly email them and I’m sure they would respond. Good luck – your dog sounds like she needs someone who understands GSD’s and has more time and energy for her. My young (15 month old) GSD is very high energy and doesn’t always pay attention, but is very sensitive and so intelligent. Overly strong or wrong methods would be a huge mistake! It doesn’t sound like she really understands what is expected and what is right or wrong.
PennyG

Hi everyone

First of all thanks everyone for taking the time to respond to my post- I hope I’ll touch on as many points as possible here but please bear with me.

The NILIF training mentioned is something I have come across before, and I thought I was doing from an early age. Before she is fed, she has to sit. Then even with the food bowl on the floor, she has to wait until I tell her she can get it. If she tries to go for it I take it up and make her sit again. TBH she is very good at this but maybe it’s all part of her training me instead! One area I have been lax is in letting her out on walks, as I excused her rushing as her not getting enough exercise. Since I first checked back on this thread yesterday morning, I have been ensuring this is part of the NILIF programme and making her sit and wait and I shut the door in her face if she won’t. She catches on fast and I made her do it several times getting nearer and nearer the door today. I’ll be enforcing it more as my back improves, if only someone in the house could actually hold her but everyone says they can’t. Maybe as I have spent so much time running and on stable duties I’m just that much fitter, even being half crippled!

She’s also not allowed upstairs or on the furniture which limits her opportunies to get places before me. Before we got our first GSD as the rest of the family are very soft with dogs I did some research and decided this was a nice non-confrontational way of trying to make sure the dog was lower in the pack, so we introduced that and have stuck to it. Not that we needed that with the first girl but my younger dog also accepts this. She gets out of my way when I tell her- not aggressively, I just refuse to walk around her. She accepts having food and toys taken away from her when I choose to do it, but I must admit I always give them back once I have removed them. Should I stop doing that?

The off lead thing- I just worry so much about her getting no exercise as she is so hyper. I do everything I can to keep away from risky situations, but with a tiny back yard would half an hour on lead twice a day be enough? Of course our other problem right now is I can’t hold her for long on lead because of my back. Currently a family friend drives us to a field, I run the dogs off lead with a ball and they come back to get me. Without that I can’t walk her at all, and no one else will- what could I do instead?

I agree the UK are down on prong collars, but I’m willing to try as I am so desperate to get help walking her, and if that makes her even a little bit easier I will do it. I have a supplier I’ve been in touch with here in the UK and it’s pay day tomorrow so I’ll get that right away. Can’t use a choke- she had that before and throttled herself to the point of collapse.

She does not fight with other dogs, never has- she only bullies the small and weak. If a dog even raises it’s upper lip to her, she won’t go near it. If it stands it’s ground and barks back, she won’t go near it. If there was another reactive dog that started at her, she’d run I have no doubt of that. There was a loose dog (no owner) on the field the other day which I see quite often- it’s met both my dogs and had met the younger a few times without incident. I tried throwing the ball near this dog- she wouldn’t go near it. I probably should have said, she was attacked by another dog when I had her out running- it just came out of an open door in its house and went straight for her. She had attacked the other dogs before that incident so this has not caused her aggression, but since that day she’s been much more wary of them. No bad thing in some ways I guess but I think fear and anxiety drive a lot of her responses, and always have.

I am in full agreement that she needs mental stimulation. I’ve taught her little tricks like ‘spin’ and 'go round (come around me) because she loves this and it keeps her engaged. It’s why I’d love to try agility and go back to obedience training but as I say most places won’t have us.

She is from working lines, both parents were Schutzhund dogs from Germany. I love the idea of finding and getting advice from a Schutzhund club- does anyone know of one in the UK- I tried a brief search but no joy the other day. Also no I don’t want to do Schutzhund with her, think that would be asking for trouble, but as you say they could probably advise and recommend a trainer near me.

I’ve not contacted the breeder as frankly I am mortified about this. She was so pleased with how well her older dog settled in and how we care for her. I feel I’ve let her down.

I’ve watched Ceasar Milan and Victoria Stilwell (it’s me or the dog) shows all my life, even before my first dog arrived and these shows prompted me to get the calmer for this one- she recommended foods high in tryptophan for a similarly dog aggressive nervy bitch, which is what the supplement provides. I’m not seeing much change yet but maybe it takes longer than a month.

My take on methods like CM’s and similarly many natural horsemanship methods like Monty Roberts are that you really can’t try and use them based on a programme which won’t cover all the background work. I mean there are so many little cues that are used and responded to. If you don’t get it spot on you do more harm than good. You need to know exactly what you are using and how you use it before you try things like that.

Re her show career (!) the judge who placed her at the show despite her barking was very kind to both of us I fully acknowledge, especially when I explained she had been attacked and was more nervous than ever. He told me to take her for a good run and come back. We played fetch for ages and came back to another class. She was much better and she won that too - the open, against older dogs- under him. He said she was lovely but needed to destress and commented on how much better she was now she’d been exercised. She will stand to be examined all over and loves people. I made sure from her early days that there was NO no go spot on her body, including her mouth and feet. I think if the dog thing could just be resolved she’d be a great show dog.

Oh- someone asked what books- I used Gwen Bailey’s the perfect puppy and GSD books from Pet love by Susan Samms and Annna Nicholas t.f.h.

Thanks again everyone I do appreciate it, it’s nice just to talk about, you know, since everyone here at home is your dog- your problem. And they were all so ‘our dog’ when she was a cute puppy. It’s very frustrating.

in terms of books, Babara Woodal(sp) I liked her approach.

(there is always rescue remedy, a dropper for you, a dropper for her…)

also, there is this thing called free style, you practically dance with your dog.

but DO talk to the breeder. They will be more mortified if you don’t!

Also, schutzhund work includes a lot of things, the protection work is actually only a smaller part.

Obidience and tracking is also a part.

(as to prong collars: a lady I used to talk to had two dalmatians. not that they were hard to train or big pullers, but being a smallish woman with 2 dogs to walk she put them in prong collars, called them ‘power stirring’. seriously beat being dragged around by a big dog! Screw them folks)

I do everything I can to keep away from risky situations, but with a tiny back yard would half an hour on lead twice a day be enough?

My petsitting dog is FINE with this. He is a young, high energy shepherd. He gets into a routine. I also walk a very fit bird dog- he gets a one hour short leash walk a day- that’s it.

You CANNOT let an aggressive dog off leash in a public place. If I was out walking my dog and your dog attacked I would be PISSED OFF. In fact, that has happened to me with the bird dog- attacked by an aggressive off leash shepherd while I walked into a park to throw a bag of poop in the trash. The dog came up out of no where and attacked my dog. I ended up booting the hell out of the shepherd. If he would have injured that bird dog, I’m quite certain that litigation would have ensued. The owner “did not see me” and “only took the dog to the park off leash when no one was around”.

Regardless of your issues- back pain, small yard… YOU are responsible for YOUR dog and finding a solution. Quite frankly, find a new home for the dog.

I prefer prongs over slip collars. Dogs tend to pull less and for a person who is injured, they can make the difference between getting out or not.

Can you paint a picture of what the perfect dog would do for us? Perhaps that will give a better idea of what you have, where to start and how to change what you have.

For instance what I want, is a dog who steps out of her crate quietly in the morning, turns to face me and sits quietly till released.

What I HAVE is a dog who bolts out of her crate like a racehorse out of a starting gate.

Yesterday I began to work on this with her breakfast and we practiced staying in the crate with the door open till released (c/t) and then coming out, front/sit (c/t). This morning she was much better. I’m sure she would have been nearly perfect if I had been more aware of myself this morning.

I want a dog who walks quietly to the door and does an auto sit.

What I HAVE is a dog who runs frantically to the door and because I’m not there yet, races back to me, then back to the door…yadda yadda yadda.

What I’m doing is freezing in spot till she comes back to a front (c/t) take 2 steps>she races off (you know, it IS much like a race…I can hear the announcer now "and shhheeee’s at the door again, and back! Meg is leading the pack to the door! She’s back to Owner! And shheees’ back to the door!), then freeze and wait. By the time I’ve gone about 4 steps, she’s staying with me and getting a c/t for each step.

My goal with my dog is that she issues the self control to do what I’m asking, not that I am controlling her with a leash. Which is not to say I won’t be using a leash, but I want her to exert the self control herself.

DONT let her go before you through any door or gate.

DONT let her pass you on the way up or down stairs–you go up/down FIRST. Squish her against the wall if she tries to ignore this.

DONT let her walk ahead of you on walks. I am adamant about this with every young dog I train-dog in front=the boss, and dont let anyone tell you differently…its not easy w/any GSD to have them TRULY in correct position (tip of nose at the outside seam of your jeans)–they like to be just A LITTLE (to a lot) ahead of you-this is a big deal to them, and if you win this battle, you are on your way to winning the war of “I mean what I say”.

oh please. These old-fashioned ideas are often referred to as “voodoo dominance” ideas- DEBUNKED long ago.
Dogs can walk in front of you on walks and since YOU are controlling the direction and pace, YOU are in charge, not the dog. There is no need to always walk a dog in heel position. Seriously- do you think dogs who are tracking or pulling a sled/wagon, dogs who are by necessity out in front- think they are seizing control/being the boss? of course not.
Dogs don’t try to “take over” the household, or “seize control”, or try to “be the boss”; dogs just do what works for them. Some dogs are more pushy about testing the rules of the household than others, true. But thinking that you and your dog must constantly be in a battle for “bossness” simply poisons the relationship forever.
MANY people teach their dogs using nothing but the principles of operant conditioning and consistency, without a single thought about “bossness” or “dominance”, and end up with extremely well-behaved dogs. Consistency being the most important part- many dogs are ill-behaved solely because they are extremely confused about what their humans expect from them because the humans aren’t consistent about the rules. Once the rules are carefully explained and kept consistent most dogs are immediately much happier and much better-behaved.

This dog isn’t trying to “take over” the household; this dog is being reactive and possibly aggressive towards other dogs. There are simple, proven protocols whereby these dogs can be improved and possibly even cured- the “click to calm” protocol is tried and true and works regardless of what the underlying problem is; the “control unleashed” protocol is still a bit new but has helped many dogs; and of course if one prefers one can try the ecollar “crittering” protocol.

Agree the dog needs more hard, disciplined work.

My comments are bolded below :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Cancara;5688997]

The off lead thing- I just worry so much about her getting no exercise as she is so hyper. I do everything I can to keep away from risky situations, but with a tiny back yard would half an hour on lead twice a day be enough?

Do you have any friends that may have a large fenced yard or a large dog-proof fenced piece of property where she could run? What about (and this is only without other dogs around) putting her on a longer line? Like 20 ft. or so. A tracking line or heck, even a longe line would work. I said “without other dogs around” because long line + dog that doesn’t particularly do well with others = disaster. Long line + dog that doesn’t particular do well with others + no dogs around = good way for exercise but still be able to reel her in if you needed to do so.

I agree the UK are down on prong collars, but I’m willing to try as I am so desperate to get help walking her, and if that makes her even a little bit easier I will do it. I have a supplier I’ve been in touch with here in the UK and it’s pay day tomorrow so I’ll get that right away. Can’t use a choke- she had that before and throttled herself to the point of collapse.

Before obtaining a prong collar (or at least using it) please PLEASE consult a trainer experienced with German Shepherds first. We can only base our information off of what’s posted here without seeing the dog up close and personal. To me she sounds like a dog that needs a job to do and is very hard. To others, she could sound like a very dog aggressive, ill-mannered, highly reactive in an aggressive manner dog. As someone else mentioned putting a prong collar on a reactive dog = bad idea.

She does not fight with other dogs, never has- she only bullies the small and weak.

In other words, she is trying to be alpha female with the small and weak ones. This to me (again - solely based off of what’s here and without meeting the dog in person) sounds like a strong-willed female (ha! I know a few humans like that) that is trying to establish herself over others and is very VERY intelligent.

I am in full agreement that she needs mental stimulation. I’ve taught her little tricks like ‘spin’ and 'go round (come around me) because she loves this and it keeps her engaged. It’s why I’d love to try agility and go back to obedience training but as I say most places won’t have us.

Right now, the other places see you guys as a liability, and if she is doing everything you say, the trainers and others may think, “uh oh - this person has no control over their dog.” You can definitely go back to obedience training, but I would recommend finding an experienced GSD-familiar trainer and doing one-on-one instead of a group setting. Your trainer will be able to wean your dog into playing well with others. I know that someone said, “keeping a dog away from others” isn’t good, but only the trainer will know how and when to do so. I’d rather determine WHAT my dog is and learn little tell-tale signs of how she reacts before overstimulating and already over-excited (that’s working line for you, for the most part) dog.

She is from working lines, both parents were Schutzhund dogs from Germany. I love the idea of finding and getting advice from a Schutzhund club- does anyone know of one in the UK- I tried a brief search but no joy the other day. Also no I don’t want to do Schutzhund with her, think that would be asking for trouble, but as you say they could probably advise and recommend a trainer near me.

[B]Here I am - I’m about to be an ignorant American and show my complete lack of locations of towns and cities in the U.K., but I did find some Schutzhund Clubs that you should be able to contact, and they should be able to help you in your area:

Celtic Vale Schutzhund Group http://www.schutzhund.plus.com/Giftitle.gif

Malvern & Worcester SG (Steven Havers) http://www.k9consultants.co.uk/The_Club.htm

South Valley Sports Dog Club http://www.southvalleysportsdog.co.uk/

Fife Schutzhund Club http://www.fifeschutzhundclub.co.uk/

Bolton Schutzhund Club
http://vpg-uk.tripod.com/

Birmingham Schutzhund Club http://www.birminghamschutzhundclub.co.uk/

South Cheshire Schutzhund Club

East Anglian Schutzhund Group http://www.lakatamiak9academy.co.uk/index.html

Romlet OG Schutzhund Club (Essex) http://romlet.mysite.orange.co.uk/page8.html

White Rose Schutzhund Club (West Yorks) http://www.freewebs.com/whiteroseschutz … /index.htm

Mayanser GSDs (West Mids)
http://mayanser.com/content/view/13/20/ [/B]

I’ve watched Ceasar Milan and Victoria Stilwell (it’s me or the dog) shows all my life

I much prefer Victoria than Cesar. Victoria seems to have more real-life situations and easy training methods and ideas.

Re her show career (!) the judge who placed her at the show despite her barking…He said she was lovely but needed to destress and commented on how much better she was now she’d been exercised. She will stand to be examined all over and loves people. I made sure from her early days that there was NO no go spot on her body, including her mouth and feet. I think if the dog thing could just be resolved she’d be a great show dog.

She COULD be a good conformation and performance events dog.

Thanks again everyone I do appreciate it, it’s nice just to talk about, you know, since everyone here at home is your dog- your problem. And they were all so ‘our dog’ when she was a cute puppy. It’s very frustrating.[/QUOTE]

It’s a rule on COTH that you can’t talk about beautiful dogs and such without posting a picture :wink: We don’t work off the “establish alpha pack” mentality in our house, but we do work off respect and manners in our household. We do use NILF training methods, and with a highly intelligent dog it may be a battle of wills, but consistency and finding the RIGHT training method or whatever piques their interest is the key. One of our dogs picks up things easily, and another requires us to present what we’re asking in a different manner.

A dog that hasn’t learned respect and manners will try to “be the boss” because they haven’t been taught acceptable boundaries. While I don’t believe in the whole “knock your dog down,” “bite its ear,” or “walking ahead of you means he’s in charge” mentality, several of the other training methods for manners are fine.

My GSD will creep ahead of me slightly, but that’s because he has a long gait, and I have short legs. I prefer him to walk in a heel next to me not because of anything related to “dominance,” but because I want a well-mannered dog that stops when I stop, sits when asked, and doesn’t pull my arm off.

Ah yes, there is nothing like 100 lbs of excited doggie launching himself off your bare foot when you release him from his crate (problem since solved.)

And there is nothing like an accompanied high-pitched bark-bark-bark right before turning around and running back down the hall as well (problem since solved.)

Ah…“memories” - lol :lol:

Kudos to the OP for continuing to work hard with her GSD.

I know that there are many more knowledgeable dog experts here but I just wanted to add a note to the OP to consider entering and obedience class because it provides mental exercise for the dog (my dog would come home exhausted and take a nap!), it provides continued exposure and interaction with other well behaved (hopefully) dogs.

The obedience class I took was geared towards working dogs, and search and rescue and mine the only corgi with a bunch of Labs and GSDs! The young GSDs were definately a handful but the older, mature GSDs were amazing!

this.

I added the red because these are the two areas that really overlap.

dogs do what works. And if what works is lunging/barking, it’s what she’s going to do! Consistency comes from having a plan, working that plan and making that plan worthwhile for the dog.

[QUOTE=wendy;5689406]
oh please. These old-fashioned ideas are often referred to as “voodoo dominance” ideas- DEBUNKED long ago.
Dogs can walk in front of you on walks and since YOU are controlling the direction and pace, YOU are in charge, not the dog. There is no need to always walk a dog in heel position. Seriously- do you think dogs who are tracking or pulling a sled/wagon, dogs who are by necessity out in front- think they are seizing control/being the boss? of course not.
Dogs don’t try to “take over” the household, or “seize control”, or try to “be the boss”; dogs just do what works for them. Some dogs are more pushy about testing the rules of the household than others, true. But thinking that you and your dog must constantly be in a battle for “bossness” simply poisons the relationship forever.
MANY people teach their dogs using nothing but the principles of operant conditioning and consistency, without a single thought about “bossness” or “dominance”, and end up with extremely well-behaved dogs. Consistency being the most important part- many dogs are ill-behaved solely because they are extremely confused about what their humans expect from them because the humans aren’t consistent about the rules. Once the rules are carefully explained and kept consistent most dogs are immediately much happier and much better-behaved.

This dog isn’t trying to “take over” the household; this dog is being reactive and possibly aggressive towards other dogs. There are simple, proven protocols whereby these dogs can be improved and possibly even cured- the “click to calm” protocol is tried and true and works regardless of what the underlying problem is; the “control unleashed” protocol is still a bit new but has helped many dogs; and of course if one prefers one can try the ecollar “crittering” pro[/QUOTE]

As I wipe the spit from my face, Wendy, I stand by what I wrote, as it works for me and for my clients for the last 30 years. I have been working full-time with suburban dogs and their owners with problems like this–not just my own dogs, and my suggestions are based on what has worked for me and my clients.

Nowhere in my post did I say the dog was taking over the house. Not allowing the dog thru doors first is good sense-creates calm and keeps dog from bolting down the driveway towards dogs, squirrels, cars, etc. So is stair manners-ever been tripped and tumbled by a rude dog?

I enforce these rules for safety, and also BECAUSE I AM THE BOSS. WHAT I SAY GOES. I start with small stuff like this, and then its much easier to get compliance on more crucial behaviors.

Sled and S&R dogs are trained to work out front. The dogs used for these pursuits are bred for and encouraged from puppyhood to work in front. The average suburban dog owner has no need for a sled or search dog. They need the dog to walk politely on lead.

I DID NOT SAY DOGS MUST ALWAYS STAY AT HEEL. I SAID THEY LEARN TO DO THIS, AND THEN I PICK AND CHOOSE WHEN AND WHERE THEY WALK. I AM THE BOSS.

I have no idea how many and what kind of dogs you own or what you do with them, or if you’ve ever worked with other people and their dogs.

OP asked for advice, and since this is a forum (Webster-a place where ideas can be exchanged), I posted my advice based on my experience with the 3 GSDs I’ve owned, the 20+ total dogs I’ve owned, the hundreds of dogs I’ve been paid to help train, and the hundred or so dogs who, over the last 30 yrs., go with me in PACKS of 10-15 into the woods, 5 days/wk, and walk OFF LEAD with me, ALL of which are completely recall-trained on ONE COMMAND on any distraction you could throw at us (horses, dogs, foxes,deer,drunks,kids,turkeys,etc), and who fall in next to me at my command to walk AS A PACK for however long I desire. I believe my opinion has merit in this or any discussion on dog training.

Oh, and I’ve shown obed., hunting tests, trained some tracking, and played w/agility(and FEI dressage), but for the last 15 yrs. have concentrated on working with average dog owners have polite well-mannered dogs they can take anywhere.

I know what has worked for me and for my many clients. It is up to the OP to pick and choose what she wants.

Well, most people will agree that correction based training and dominance mindsets have produced very obedient dogs throughout the years. Those techniques dominated dog training land for a long time, and many people still use them rather successfully.

Some just disagree that it’s the best method.

And your post did have a dominance theory leaning, which has been pretty soundly thumped these days. Many have also found more success with positive reward based training versus things like “high-collaring.”

More than one way to skin a cat and all that.

When you talk to people who’ve had great success with using pretty much only positive (rewards based) training, they can get pretty upset about the more traditional techniques. Sort of like if you go talking about sharp bits and draw reins in dressage-land.