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At the end of my tether with my dog- open to any advice! HELP!

The Menagerie
#41

[QUOTE=bort84;5690276]

More than one way to skin a cat and all that.[/QUOTE]

Yup there are, and I wrote what I’d do. And I suppose it IS dominant–I’m just an old boss bitch–just ask my husband:cool: Its simply what works for me, in the real world of helping people with everyday dog problem behavior. I do what works, and the goal always is a safe and happy dog.

That said, I’ll never stop learning and changing things up. That’s what is so good about this forum-you get all kinds of opinions. :yes: AND great ideas:yes:AND stuff that pisses you off:yes::yes::yes:

#42

Just posting so I can get updated on this string, as my folks have a Germand Shepard who is very similar - in mind and issues. Interested in read through all the posts…

#43

Personally, I come down strongly on the side of positive reinforcement. However, I’ve had happy, well adjusted dogs in the past before I knew how to do it and was using outdated theories. While the debate can be fun in an academic sense, it probably does nothing for people like the poor OP who hear:

Dominance advocate: You have to take control of that dog and let it know who’s boss or it will become a dangerous animal who will seriously bite and injure someone!

Positive reinforcement advocate: You have to address the fear/anxiety issues and not create added stress for the dog or it will become a nervous, neurotic mess and ultimately a dangerous animal who will seriously bite and injure someone!

And the poor OP wonders why she didn’t just get a cat! :smiley:

While I do believe positive reinforcement is best, I recognize that dogs have lived with us for thousands of years and the vast majority were happy and well adjusted. We cycled through all our theories and changed our methods. Meanwhile, they muddled through and figured us out.

But the OP would like to make changes in her dog’s behavior. I still think (as do most posters) that she would do best by bringing in someone who has experience working with her breed of dog and that dog’s issues. Someone who can come to her house and work with her one on one. While I would prefer the OP to go with someone who uses positive reinforcement techniques, consistency and clear expectations are more important than just about anything else (in my opinion).

#44

Threedogpack is da bomb. And totally right!!

#45

It sounds like the OP has a classic case of Purebred Dog Syndrome- dog is purebred, from working lines, has a high drive to do what it’s bred for, and it currently has no outlet to do so. A close friend had an average-bred golden retriever as a kid. Despite little training and a serious lack of consistency on her part, she turned out to be a super family pet, and was a treat to spend time with. As a young adult, friend decided she wanted another golden because “Annie was the best dog ever”. Off she goes to do her research- she fell into the camp that wanted hips/eyes/everything certified, and wanted to go to the best breeder to get it (who can blame her with a breed that’s fraught with so many problems??). Found a lovely, LOVELY breeder, and waited almost a year to get a GORGEOUS puppy.

Fast forward a year- this dog is a nightmare. She is destroying furniture, she’s rummaging through the garbage, she’s stockpiling dirty laundry, rifling through cabinets, digging up the corners of the carpets, everything. But the SECOND you throw something for this dog, she brings it back and drops it at your feet. This is literally all she wants to do when you make eye contact with her. Friend refuses to chalk the behavior issues up to a lack of training and opportunity to work. She thinks the dog is a dud. It’s quite sad, actually, because it’s pretty obvious that the dog is just extremely driven to do exactly what it was bred to do, and isn’t happy with the “average” lifestyle of the typical family. In the end, friend would have been much better off with a mixed-breed dog that was a little more level headed, and FAR less driven to do one particular thing.

It sounds like your dog isn’t as much the problem as your situation is. She sounds surrounded by a group of people that either won’t or can’t be bothered to work her out of some of her anxiety/frustration, and she sounds really intelligent. She knows she needs to do something, but has no idea what. If I were you, I would contact a few good GSD trainers in your area, visit one on one with a couple, and hear from the professionals what they think you can reasonably expect of your dog in the constraints of your situation. It’s critical that a trainer is aware of exactly how little time/physical effort you’re capable of spending exercising this dog. There might be ways to work around that, but the approach is going to be a lot different if you can only work with her for 30 minutes 2x/day.

Have you considered hiring a professional dog walker that can give her a good, long, brisk walk a few times per week? This might make quite a difference for the dog, and wouldn’t put any strain on you physically.

#46

[QUOTE=Blinkers On;5690437]
Threedogpack is da bomb. And totally right!![/QUOTE]

Thanks Blinkers On

#47

Please don’t let your GSD off leash anymore. I have the impression that it’s much more common in the UK than in the US to let dogs run free in public parks, but unfortunately, you have a dog who can’t handle it. It doesn’t have to mean she doesn’t get exercise; my fast, selectively-deaf-when-something-interesting-is-around Border Collie mix didn’t get off her leash in public till she was 10. By then, a combination of maturity and a decade of my reinforcing the concept of “Stop” gave me an emergency brake for her. For her puppy crazies era (ages 18 months to 4 years) we used a long line, one of those 15’-20’ canvas leads they use for training, and enclosed spaces like tennis courts and softball fields (obviously, not when anyone was around).

#48

[QUOTE=FrenchFrytheEqHorse;5690496]
It sounds like the OP has a classic case of Purebred Dog Syndrome- dog is purebred, from working lines, has a high drive to do what it’s bred for, and it currently has no outlet to do so. A close friend had an average-bred golden retriever as a kid. Despite little training and a serious lack of consistency on her part, she turned out to be a super family pet, and was a treat to spend time with. As a young adult, friend decided she wanted another golden because “Annie was the best dog ever”. Off she goes to do her research- she fell into the camp that wanted hips/eyes/everything certified, and wanted to go to the best breeder to get it (who can blame her with a breed that’s fraught with so many problems??). Found a lovely, LOVELY breeder, and waited almost a year to get a GORGEOUS puppy.

Fast forward a year- this dog is a nightmare. She is destroying furniture, she’s rummaging through the garbage, she’s stockpiling dirty laundry, rifling through cabinets, digging up the corners of the carpets, everything. But the SECOND you throw something for this dog, she brings it back and drops it at your feet. This is literally all she wants to do when you make eye contact with her. Friend refuses to chalk the behavior issues up to a lack of training and opportunity to work. She thinks the dog is a dud. It’s quite sad, actually, because it’s pretty obvious that the dog is just extremely driven to do exactly what it was bred to do, and isn’t happy with the “average” lifestyle of the typical family. In the end, friend would have been much better off with a mixed-breed dog that was a little more level headed, and FAR less driven to do one particular thing.

It sounds like your dog isn’t as much the problem as your situation is. She sounds surrounded by a group of people that either won’t or can’t be bothered to work her out of some of her anxiety/frustration, and she sounds really intelligent. She knows she needs to do something, but has no idea what. If I were you, I would contact a few good GSD trainers in your area, visit one on one with a couple, and hear from the professionals what they think you can reasonably expect of your dog in the constraints of your situation. It’s critical that a trainer is aware of exactly how little time/physical effort you’re capable of spending exercising this dog. There might be ways to work around that, but the approach is going to be a lot different if you can only work with her for 30 minutes 2x/day.

Have you considered hiring a professional dog walker that can give her a good, long, brisk walk a few times per week? This might make quite a difference for the dog, and wouldn’t put any strain on you physically.[/QUOTE]

You know what gets me about this? When does this dog have the opportunity to trash the house? The dog can’t be more than 2 years old (we only FF’d a year afterall), why is this dog loose in the house unsupervised?

I’ve got a friend that did something similar. She fell in love with my aussies, and wanted one of her own. The thing is she never saw or spent time with mine when I first got them. She met them when they were 4.5 and 6 (now 6.5 and 8), decently trained, very well mannered, easy to live with dogs. She now has a pup that is 13 months old (came from a great breeder) that is a Holy Terror! But she lets him!! She knows the dog destroys everything the minute she leaves the house and she leaves him loose anyways (He stresses in the crate…). I don’t know who is worse… It just makes me very upset that she blames the dog.

Sorry for the vent.

OP. If you are not comfortable working with a prong collar (and they are not for everyone) then try to find a thin link choker (though attach the leash to the regular collar as well, just in case). Place it high on her neck (I think someone described the proper placement a few pages back). If she chokes herself till she blacks out then goodie for her. She will learn. She’s smart. It’s what got her into this mess in the first place.

The barking, lunging, and carrying on should NOT be allowed. Set her up, not to fail but to learn. Devise a situation where you can correct the behavior (not remove her), and immediately reward her for the proper behavior that you want her to display (sitting, no barking, whatever). She is smart, and she needs proper stimulation for her age, but if she doesn’t have the basics down you don’t have access to the classes. Try to get in contact with a trainer that knows the breed (or group at least) and is familiar with this type of behavior. Ask for references.

Goodluck!

One more thing. A lungeline is your friend.

#49

how is this NOT setting her up for failure when you setting up a correction?

#50

[QUOTE=Rhyadawn;5690771]

OP. If you are not comfortable working with a prong collar (and they are not for everyone) then try to find a thin link choker (though attach the leash to the regular collar as well, just in case). Place it high on her neck (I think someone described the proper placement a few pages back). If she chokes herself till she blacks out then goodie for her. She will learn. She’s smart. It’s what got her into this mess in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Yipes!

So, full disclaimer: I grew up with using a mix of correction and reward type training with horses. Many rewards were negative, meaning we took away something unpleasant if the response was correct (rein pressure, leg pressure, whip, etc). As with most traditional horse training, there was a healthy dose of correction, or positive punishment, mixed in.

Because of this, I grew up very skeptical of “treat training” as I saw it.

Given more time to study and explore, I’m sometimes appalled at what the techniques I used to think were perfectly acceptable.

One such thing is: hang the dog until it blacks out, then she’ll learn. Similarly, beat the horse into the trailer, she’ll figure out which way is easiest… It all seemed so simple and acceptable…

Then I see that other, far more animal-friendly, techniques work just as well or better, and it makes me stop and think about what I’ve thought of as “correct” in animal training all these years…

Anyway, I think we’re more prone as horse people to find strong corrections acceptable without considering other ways. We’ve always been told: a horse is big, it will kill you if you aren’t on your guard at all times (projecting a confident authoritative energy is a different thing entirely, and very useful for all types of training). I think the whole idea of inflicting pain to solidify certain behaviors is starting to be proven incorrect for all animals.

After all, if they can get a hyena to happily accept a shot through positive reward training, shouldn’t we be able to teach a horse to load or lead politely in the same fashion? And if a horse can do it, can’t we get a dog to do it without choking it until it passes out? They’ve had incredible success with guide dogs (both with retention of lessons and with overall graduation rates) and using positive techniques. They said the training wouldn’t hold without strict correction techniques, but the positively trained dogs actually had better retention and learned faster.

Both methods work, but if that’s the case, shouldn’t we exhaust all of the least punitive methods first?

#51

[QUOTE=bort84;5690848]

Both methods work, but if that’s the case, shouldn’t we exhaust all of the least punitive methods first?[/QUOTE]

yes.

and thank you. I totally forgot that first part…about hanging till she blacks out. There is no reason on earth to .ever. do that to a dog. None.

#52

Because the first golden, by some miracle of the lord, never went in a crate, never went to obedience classes, never got socialized around other dogs, and just somehow turned out to be a wonderful dog. Hence the reason friend thought “all goldens must be saintly animals that come pre-programmed to be amazing house pets”.

I’m not saying this is the case with the OP. It sounds more like the OP had a great dog that might not have been typical of working line GSDs, and then had a great relationship with a good breeder who gave her the opportunity to have an “even better” GSD. It’s always hard when someone bases their experience with an entire breed off of a handful of dogs, few of which are actually raised by them.

I hate to be a shelter advocate on these threads, because obviously, there is a large contingent of people that want purebred dogs. That being said, very few homes are suitable for working-bred animals of any kind, much less those that are bred to do extremely focused, strenuous work. If this were a horse thread, and someone were venting about their race-bred yearling that wouldn’t calmly walk at the end of a lead around a pack of other high-strung horses, people would laugh. People should only commit to owning a pure bred dog when they have the time and resources necessary to keep them satisfied and stimulated in their everyday lives. It sounds like the OP is dedicated to doing what is right for her dog, and I hope she is able to locate and secure the resources necessary to do that.

#53

That is, of course, unless your purebred dog is a greyhound = )

I actually went with a purebred rescue to have a better idea of what I was getting. I knew a needed a happy go lucky couch potato, so I picked a breed that fit the bill and then picked an individual within the breed that fit the bill.

I completely get your point though. For an example that you are apparently familiar with: because of the many labs and goldens that seem to be put on this earth only to be amazing family pets, people assume they are all that way. For me, however, it’s been the rare lab or golden that has lived up to that expectation, so I’m always shocked at the number of people who still hold that belief (perfect family dog with little work…)

I do think you can have a lot of luck with a purebred (horse or dog) if you do a lot of research. As I said before, I was looking pretty much exclusively at breed rescues because I wanted a good idea of what I was getting into. A mutt would have been a harder sell for me unless they had also had a well known history with good foster time on the record.

#54

Because the statement popped up of “I have no idea what type of dogs you own or your experience” (one poster to another) I, myself, have a West German show line GSD, and a Czech working line GSD as well as voluntarily help owners on Sunday afternoons with bouncing-off-the-wall Shepherd purchases.

You know…the purchases that go something like this:

“I have always wanted a German Shepherd, and my husband found these beautiful puppies online. They had the most unique coloring so we HAD to get one of the little fluffballs. I noticed at three months of age, Fluffy was VERY mouthy and nipped all the time. It always wanted to chase the cat, socks, or anything fluttering around. By the time 6 months rolled around, Fluffy sort of knew how to sit and sometimes down, but only when he wanted to because he’s a really stubborn boy. Between 6 months and 10 months though, he completely changed. He has destroyed our couch, will NOT come when called when we’re outside in the yard, and is just REALLY hyper. I don’t know what we’re going to do. He jumps on everything, he chases the cats and squirrels in our yard, and he is destroying everything. We’ve had to replace two couches, and several pieces of molding and door frames around the house. My husband wants to put him on Craigslist, and I’m sure he’d make great puppies because he’s so pretty. I asked the person we got him from what kind of ‘lines’ he has because I heard someone mention ‘working lines’ on another forum. The breeder said he didn’t know, but they were ‘sable lines.’ Is there anything we can do? We walk him once or twice a week for about 45 minutes, and sometimes on the weekend we walk for about an hour and a half. No, he doesn’t know what a crate is because he’s a guard dog.”

#55

[QUOTE=bort84;5690871]
That is, of course, unless your purebred dog is a greyhound = )

I actually went with a purebred rescue to have a better idea of what I was getting. I knew a needed a happy go lucky couch potato, so I picked a breed that fit the bill and then picked an individual within the breed that fit the bill.

I completely get your point though. For an example that you are apparently familiar with: because of the many labs and goldens that seem to be put on this earth only to be amazing family pets, people assume they are all that way. For me, however, it’s been the rare lab or golden that has lived up to that expectation, so I’m always shocked at the number of people who still hold that belief (perfect family dog with little work…)

I do think you can have a lot of luck with a purebred (horse or dog) if you do a lot of research. As I said before, I was looking pretty much exclusively at breed rescues because I wanted a good idea of what I was getting into. A mutt would have been a harder sell for me unless they had also had a well known history with good foster time on the record.[/QUOTE]

Aha, but turn your greyhound loose in a large field with a few rabbits or other small vermin, and then see what he does ;c). Greyhounds are super family pets, but (as I’m sure you know!!) they ARE sighthounds bred to chase the hell out of small furry things, and probably aren’t the right dogs for someone that wants a dog that’s going to have perfect off-leash recall in most situations.

I’d also venture a guess that greyhound rescue is a little different than most purebred rescue- retired racers aren’t family dogs gone wrong. They’re retired working dogs that had purpose and discipline (ie: consistent routine, clear expectations, etc.) during their critically formidable years. If the OP’s dog had spent the first few years of her life doing Schutzhund, or tending to sheep, or performing the working-type tasks that she was bred for, she’d probably be a lot better off. It’s risky to leave a young, highly bred dog (or any dog for that matter, really) to their own devices.

(Sorry, OP, I am not trying to pick on you. It really sounds like you’ve got the best interests of your dog in mind, and I wish you all the best in working through this difficult stage!!)

#56

Haha, no, I totally understand what you meant = )

I just wanted to counter your point slightly, and say that I think a purebred can be a great option for a lot of people (even rank beginners), but they HAVE to research!

I researched a lot of breeds and knew my grey would not be one I could let roam around off leash (which was perfectly fine with me) but that she was likely to be happy with limited exercise and a small living space (which was REALLY important). She was likely to be harder to train (independent) but overall would be pretty “good” without a lot of intense training/work. I then carefully chose the individual to further increase my chances of success, haha.

It’s definitely a little harder with a purebred pup because you don’t know how the adult will turn out (the OP’s case is a perfect example!) Still, it does help you have an idea of what you are likely to get (within a range).

A mutt may have a nice mix of qualities that make them easier than some purebreds, but they might have the exact WRONG mix of qualities too, haha. Sort of like a lot of popular horse crosses - some of them are absolutely perfect examples of all of their lineage and others somehow ended up with all the worst qualities.

My biggest reservation with a mutt is that you often don’t know their history. If you can find a good hand-me-down dog from someone you know or one that has been fostered (I love the foster-to-adopt option), that helps a ton. There is definitely something to be said for mutt health though.

And your point about greyhound adoption is a good one: most of them aren’t in the adoption kennel because they were failed pets, they are usually just freshly retired from the track. This has it’s own challenges but a lot of positives too.

With certain purebred rescues (especially very popular breeds), you can run into a lot of poorly bred dogs that are likely to develop health issues. Dogs that get given up to shelters are more likely to have been owned by irresponsible owners who likely did NOT spend enough time training and likely did NOT research responsible breeders during their puppy search… A quality breeder will almost always take their pups back, so that is a good thing to keep in mind with purebred rescues.

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