At what number of strides is it OK to "add"?

[kcmel]

I appreciated retread’s recent blog post regarding 12 foot strides:

http://horsejunkiesunited.com/2017/0…ed-back-track/

It raised the question with me (along with my lesson yesterday and some clinics with JW) when is it OK to add a stride?

I’ve done the 4,5,6 stride exercise between 2 jumps set up for 5 strides. This would equal 15, 12, and 10 foot strides (if I’ve done the math correctly). Yesterday my horse kept trying to add between two jumps set up for 3 strides. I had to really push him to make it (jumps were ~3’). This would be 9 ft strides, which doesn’t seem that unreasonable (of course in this case he was chipping, since I was trying for 3, but speaking hypothetically).

So is it “safe” to do a 3 stride in 4, once the jumps get a little higher? Is it going to depend on the horse? (OK for a pony but not for a horse)? Is there a “rule of thumb”?

(In my specific case, we are working on canter lengthenings, and getting him more responsive to my leg, so I think getting the correct number of strides will get easier for him. Plus I think it may time to address his hocks again, as he is just starting to feel a little bit uncomfortable).

[Squirt]

I’ve done two in a one on a small short strided horse. I would always add rather than take a flier.

[findeight]

As soon as you see you are getting there too long for a safe jump and/or whatever comes after it, like a bank, water or sharp turn. Not to be confused with a chip which is when the horse bails you out of a too long spot.

Or, when you plan the add and adjust the stride before you approach the jump.

The number of strides is not etched in stone, particularly in Eventing or hacking out, Its whatever is safe for that horse and that situation. And I am an HP, strides, making the numbers, are the result of a properly managed canter/gallop around the entire course, not just near the jumps. That 12’ average for 3’ fences is for the nicely groomed sand ring with fences set at related distances with a tape measure. IRL, rider needs to be able to see and adjust to stay safe and that all goes to correct flatwork and managing that stride length in a willing horse.

[kcmel]

Right. I suppose there can be no “rule of thumb” since it is so horse-dependent. You wouldn’t expect a small pony to be able to do 12 ft strides consistently. For course walking, you could only plan to make the 5 stride a six, but in reality you would have to adjust to how you come in, etc.

I remember at a CT there was a funny distance, and my trainer on my young horse tried to take out a stride but it didn’t work out (he had a rare rail). I rode after her and added (at her suggestion) and it worked out perfect.

[WNT]

I would say it depends on the quality of the shorter stride. I’ve done exercises with two fences on a 6 or 7 stride distance, and ridden for the 5, or 8, or 9, to test adjustability.

If the shorter stride is energetic and forward, adding one or two shouldn’t be the end of the world. If the shorter stride is the result of no impulsion and pulling on the reins, you’re going to have a bad time.

Luckily, in general, my Prelim horse was smarter than me, and was very capable of making up for my occasional lack of confidence and tendency to ride backwards. He could handily add a stride by angling a combination or just power through if I was under-riding. A strong argument could be made that he was ready to move up to Prelim and I wasn’t at the time. But he was a hell of a confidence builder!

[beowulf]

I am not an upper level eventer by any means, but I rarely counted my strides out XC. To me, there’s way too many variables to accurately be able to gauge exactly how many strides: terrain, depth of grass/terrain/traction, the horse’s natural length of stride, quality of canter coming in, the type of fence before/after, etc – of course, I would walk the combinations a few times to get a good idea of the distance, but to me, the quality of the canter is more important than the number of strides between elements. Some horses are not physically capable of having a 12 foot stride,

Focus on the balance and impulsion of the canter in gridwork, and do that often enough (combined elements) and your horse will start to plan ahead for you – I know some riders don’t incorporate grid work or combined elements as much as they could or should – but a well trained horse is adjustable without you needing to micromanage it. They look for the next fence while they are in midair, same as us – and a good horse can figure out his own striding… which kind of goes part and parcel with the fifth leg; some horses need to learn to be more autonomous cross-country. It’s one of the reasons I spend more time getting my green beans going over XC fences in hand or on the lunge so that they start to answer the problems for themselves without ‘mommy’ holding their hands – and then I ask the same of them under saddle. I let them struggle a bit, make a mistake or two, and then go back to doing something easy like a coop or a log. I find a lot of riders when focusing on meeting a combination, might micromanage and pull back on their mounts’ face too much – which makes the mount want to rush, chip in, or suck back – none of which can help the horse get the proper impulsion and balance it needs to clear the fence safely. Focus too much on getting the pretty stride makes some riders get too in their horse’s face XC.

I think that counting strides out on cross country is better left in the schooling ring (to practice adjustability) where everything is predictable: the footing most important. If you pay attention to top riders like Jung, WFP, IK, etc, you’ll notice that they have mentioned that they don’t focus on counting strides, they focus on delivering a good canter up to the fence.

So to answer your question – be careful about focusing too much on counting strides, otherwise you lose the impulsion you need, which directly affects the horse’s balance and speed: to jump cleanly and safely, the horse needs a balance of these three principles and it’s more important to focus on achieving that balance than to focus on the metric distance a stride should have.

[fordtraktor]

I don’t have a natural eye so I need to have a great canter and count strides. If I know something is a, say, 5, I feel much more comfortable either doing the 5 or making it a 6 based on how I came in. But if I don’t know the striding, it is harder for me to feel confident about where I am.

but counting strides is like second nature to me, I have mostly ridden jumpers. I sometimes don’t count bending lines over 8ish strides. That said, I have been known to count jumpoff turn strides…not because it was set in stone but to get my line in mind if I came in with the canter and distance I was planning. A lot of jumpers do that for rollbacks.

my trainer’s motto is to have a plan, ride the plan, know when and why to adjust the plan. Then experience gives you the ability to tell when you need to adjust on the fly. But tossing it to the fates is not optimal.

i bet Michael Jung knows very well what the right strides are. He is very in control and is also a master at adjusting the plan based on what is currently happening underneath him. Doesn’t mean he is totally riding without any awareness of strides esp on tight (4 strides and below) related distances.

what is dumb is when “the right strides” aren’t going to work out and the rider can’t let the numbers go. There are no medals for getting X number of strides. The purpose of strides awareness is to make the jumps good as often as possible.

Also, it is important to know what is a 12 ft canter, what is a 10 ft canter, and what is a 14 ft canter on your horse. Also, how hills affect that feeling because usually uphill makes a canter shorter and downhill makes it longer (distances can seem long uphill and short downhill). If you come into a line that requires a 14 ft canter and have a 10 foot canter, better to know that and look for the extra stride/take a pull early so that you can not interfere in the last couple strides.

[Xctrygirl]

I am of two minds on this.

On the one hand I work hard, on my own and with trainers and strive to be accurate with my distances on a stadium or jumper course.

That said, at home I often just throw fences in the arena while judging with my eye what the distance might be. I don’t walk it and I go slow and start low but those days are all about figuring it out with my horse.

I know not all can find or feel their distance. I know that a course of poles on the ground will do as much if not more for helping to find and feel out the distances. But when it counts ( as in a show) I want to know that my horse and I are together and as long as I have the right impulsion and line, we’re pretty darn likely to get to the other side.

The answer to your question is “You can always add. It’s just a matter of if you will get away with it”

~Emily

[vineyridge]

Can we talk shortening and lengthening the stride before we talk adding or dropping a whole stride? M Jung doesn’t even jump his horses until he can adjust the stride length. Which makes sense since the stride length is different at different speeds. IIRC, the standard gallop size is 17 feet.

[Janet]

@kcmel

I appreciated retread’s recent blog post regarding 12 foot strides:

I’ve done the 4,5,6 stride exercise between 2 jumps set up for 5 strides. This would equal 15, 12, and 10 foot strides (if I’ve done the math correctly). Yesterday my horse kept trying to add between two jumps set up for 3 strides. I had to really push him to make it (jumps were ~3’). This would be 9 ft strides, which doesn’t seem that unreasonable (of course in this case he was chipping, since I was trying for 3, but speaking hypothetically).

So is it “safe” to do a 3 stride in 4, once the jumps get a little higher? Is it going to depend on the horse? (OK for a pony but not for a horse)? Is there a “rule of thumb”?

It is almost always SAFER to add than to leave out. a 3 stride line is 48 ft, which would give you a 16 ft stride in 2 strides, a 12 ft stride in 3 strides, and a 9.6 ft stride (9’7") in 2 strides.

“Stuff happens” (jumped in too slow and weak. horse backed off) and sometimes the “4 in a 3” works out. And sometimes the horse is really forward and jumps in big, and the “2 in a 3” works too.

But more often than not, the 4 in a 3 is a chip and the 2 in a 3 is scary. (a 9’ stride rarely has the impulsion needed to jump a decent height, unless the horse is really “coiled like a spring” and bouncy).

In general, I would say that INTENTIONALLY asking for a 2 in a 3 or a 4 in a 3 is an exercise for “getting ready to go Prelim”.

Doing 4,5, or 6 strides in a 5 stride (72’) line is a pretty standard exercise.

Doing 3 or 5 strides in a 4 stride line (60’) might make sense as a SPECIFIC exercise for a SPECIFIC problem, but I would not recommend it as a generic “adjustability” exercise.

[kcmel]

Thanks for everyone’s thoughts. Beowulf, I was thinking more of stadium than XC. I don’t often count strides XC, and haven’t seen too many shorter related distances at novice (Maybe a 4 stride once?).

[beowulf]

oh, sorry! I ASSumed it was a question about getting/counting strides in XC… I think I saw the picture of the horse galloping XC and just ran away with the assumptions. My bad!

[yellowbritches]

I agree that it is almost always safer to add. Good jumper riders can ride really precisely at a good clip to take strides out but I do not advocate it for lesser mortals! But there really is no rule of thumb on when to add. I rode a horse with a meh canter but who was cat like and scopey and he seemed to be able to add strides, even at prelim, and still jump out of big combos.

That being said, when I finally got good at making and maintaining a good canter and riding more precisely, my show jumping improved greatly. It is less an issue at the lower levels, but definitely at prelim and somewhat at training (depending on the horse), precision and quality of canter can make or break your round. When I could keep the canter that would make the lines work, we had more and more clear rounds. That also gave me the skill set to adjust quickly and smoothly if we jumped into a line and I realized the strides WEREN’T there. I got very precise, even counting how many strides I should take before curving a bending line while course walking.

And while it may not be an issue at novice on xc, it’s still good to think about it. If you are constantly adding a stride or two in combos at novice, there may be a lack of forward that needs to be addressed. Unless you are riding a short strided pony or horse who just physically can’t make the striding, in which case, you need to ride the horse you’re on.

[Sticky_Situation]

In my book, there’s a big difference between intentionally adding a stride or getting to a bit of a deep distance where the horse “pats” off the ground but the quality of the canter is maintained, vs a horse that is behind the leg and in a downhill balance and adds in the form of a chip.

The first scenario will almost never get you into trouble.

The second almost inevitably will once the fences get over about Novice height.

Stride length is important, but not as important as the balance and impulsion of said stride.

[SlamDunk]

Technically 4 and up, otherwise a 1 is a 1 a 2 is 2 and a 3 is a 3. Of course things happen and I’ve definitely done a 2 in a 1 at 1.30m and survived with out a rail (My horse is super careful and a sweetheart) but it’s not something I would intentionally plan at 3 strides and below

ETA the above was talking about adding a stride not taking out. Taking out a stride is only advisable during a jump off (IMO) as a plan. Yes of course it happens, I did it all the time with my first horse but it shouldn’t be the plan and it’s definitely not advisable as the jumps go up.

[retreadeventer]

Hey thanks for the shoutout!
Two things:
One. Don’t forget that there is variation in your TAKEOFF and LANDING distances.
These distances vary depending upon what you have set - verticals, oxers, square or ramped, the ground lines pushed in or out, the wind blowing, the horses neighing in the far pasture, kids screaming, etc… horses will vary their landing as much as 2 feet from attempt to attempt through the line, so this is turn affects the stride length. While in your head you’re thinking, “12-ft, 12-ft, 12-ft”, in reality if your horse jumped in the line landing at 7 ft, you’re going to have 11-12-12, etc. So this does vary depending upon what you set and how things are in the ring.

Two and the more important reason:
The reason we use those 4, 5, 6-stride exercises is TIME. The rider and the horse have time to read, assess, and act after landing.
One of the reasons that 3-stride lines are not used much in lower level competition, and why I don’t use 3 stride lines when I design courses is that TIME and the take-off/landing distances works against you. Richard Jeffrey is dead set against the 3 stride line for almost everything because he feels this is dangerous to horse and rider - there is so little time to react once you land. He says the horse does not read the 2nd fence well because it’s in an area where the horse can’t make a quick decision based on his eyesight. (Horses are farsighted - the 3-stride distance puts the second fence within a 30 foot range or so to the landing horse and he can’t read it correctly since it’s not close enough.)
They tend to land further into the line with the 3-stride lines (jumping normally) over the first fence, because of their farsightedness. This gets them into the line having to subtract from the following strides IMMEDIATELY. The first stride is your landing/recovery stride, then you have just 24 feet to make a difference. This is HARD and for a horse and rider schooling and learning and not Grand Prix experienced (like we all are) it’s a hard task. And I think the theory is the horse is adjusting his eyesight to the 2nd fence and realizing it’s way closer than he originally thought. ( I didn’t get to hear all of that at the seminar where it was discussed. So I may have it wrong.)

So my suggestion is…don’t use 3 strides. Go to 2 strides, or open it to 4 strides. It’s not you or or your horse, it’s the bad 3 stride distance that is the culprit. Does that help?

[kcmel]

That does help! Very interesting. We were actually schooling a course Friday that had been set up for a show Sunday, so it’s not an exercise I would do at home. Now I know why it was so hard!

At the show the 3-stride line was in 2 classes, one with a jump-off. My horse did it in 4 in the first class, not sure about the jump-off, and we got the 3 in the timed class where I was asking for more speed. It seemed to work OK both ways.

[tbchick84]

My horse is most comfortable with a 10’ stride. As a result, I have to either be intentionally riding forward or collected to negotiate any stadium course set up for the beloved 12’ stride. Instead of drive myself batty counting strides, I have found the better option is to have the right canter for the job and wait for the fence to come to us. When my horse has the right canter, he’s able to make those last second adjustments to make a good effort. If I feel like we’re getting there long, I add leg, short I sit up. I’m sure this is not a useful approach for fences higher than what I jump, (2’7" tops) but it works for us. I’ve always been told that it’s not fair to the horse to adjust a canter once you’re 3 strides out since it can throw him off balance, but the adjustable canter is one you can stretch or shorten without disrupting balance.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Interesting because one of my favorite jumping exercises from Jimmy Wofford is a 3 to a 3. Typically vertical, hogs back to vertical set on 45’ to 45’. It’s a perfect 3 to a 3…but of course you never get in perfect so the exercise is designed to make the rider think quick and adjust.

The ideal is NOT to add or subtract but ride the 3 to 3…and because of the distance…you have to react. But what you set for a training exercise is different from what you want to set in a competition course.

[Janet]

You should NOT be seeing 3-strde lines in Eventing show jumping, below Prelim. (see the rules)

You WILL see 3-stride lines in low level “straight show jumping”, though I consider it poor design.

You WILL see 3-stride lines in low level cross country (I forget whether it is in the rules or the guidelines).