I’m wondering at what point do you think a martingale is helpful to a horse that is learning. Not as a way of covering a training gap, but so as to make clear to your partner what you are expecting? I’m asking because I have an OTTB I am hopeful will become an Eventer. While she has figured out everything I have ever asked of her, and willingly complied the one spot we keep disagreeing in is her head/neck. She has a naturally high head set and if it were up to her it would always be straight up in the air (and in my face :p) where she can see everything. She knows how to lower it when asked and will do so. I also don’t expect her to keep it super low. But she will not keep it down, it will go up for a few strides, then back down, ten back up and so on. It’s difficult to maintain consistent (but light) contact some days because it’s so all over the place. I know she feels nagged some days, and will start throwing her head waaay down. She refuses to use her head/neck while jumping too, will jump with her head straight up in the air. This is even untacked, it’s just the way she wants to move. We are taking a break from jumping for a few weeks and going to go back to some basics, I would really LOVE to get her moving with her head set reasonably and consistently. I am wondering if maybe she is unsure as to where exactly she should keep her head, and I know it takes a different set of muscles to do so but how do I develop those muscles if she isn’t willing to use them? I’ve never used a martingale, I’ watched them get misused so may times it put me off them. But I’m wondering if this is the kind of situation where they are able to be used to teach instead of fix. I would appreciate any insights you all have on your experiences! TIA!
At this stage, I would put more emphasis on her body instead of her head and neck. Does she willingly bend around your inside leg? Have you tried leg yield, TOF, shoulder-fore, haunches-in to get her using her hind end more effectively?
The running martingale is for safety only. It is not a training device. You put it on so as the rings reach to the withers or to at least 10cm below the withers. It is only avtivated if the head cones too high for safety and is usually for a horse that lifts their head, grabs the bit and takes off which you did not mention.
The standing martingale is illegal in ponyclub as the horse cannot lift it’s head to help itself if it falls and there is no way I would put it on for jumping.
Your girl’s problem is either pain from injury or lack of muscle or
And you don’t want to hear this…
Because of the rider not riding correctly.
Some lessons on Dressage or flatwork will help you immensely.
This cannot be done by someone who has not been taught. Sidereins do not injure and kill horses. It is trainers using sidereins incorrectly that injure and kill horses.
Lunging in side reins would help your horse.
There’s really no way to misuse a correctly adjusted running martingale, but it won’t solve your problem either. I think you need to find a trainer to work with you.
We will be working with a trainer later this summer, sooner if finances allow. We did work with one right after I adopted her, it’s an issue we worked on then as well. Both the trainer and I assumed this issue would smooth out with consistent correct work since she does try so hard to do the right thing. I always look to my riding first, she definitely requires very mindful riding ( hands slip down, head comes straight up)! And I can get her into nice carriage with my riding, the trouble is keeping her there. She does leg yield very nice, and usually bends nicely too. Coming out if a bend she can get squirrelly sometimes. She didn’t have much of a hind end when I got her but it’s now nice and strong. I’ve never pushed her to stay collected for very long so I didn’t push her muscles too much while she was building them. But it’s not just the head up, it’s her throwing her head down too. I know previously she was a western horse and they used draw reins and tie downs to force her head down into the “peanut pusher” frame. Yuck! Lunging is still a work in progress, she was downright terrified of the lunge line when I got her and if you picked up a lunge whip she would fall apart in a panic attack. We are working on that but undoing abuse takes a long time. I feel like I should add that I was considering a standing martingale that we could use just on the flat for small stretches. Just a little extra help to show her right where she needs to be.
A standing martingale will prevent the horse from hitting you in the face when it throws its head up. It’s not going to prevent it from throwing its head up in the first place, just limit how far it can go. Have you had her teeth done? Tried bits with different mouthpieces?
Lunging an abused horse can still happen.
You get her used to the lunge whip before you start any lunging. Lunging is an art form and maybe you should have some lessons in lunging. I only say this as I have lunged a lot of horses that have been abused and I haven’t had a problem.
One of my stoies from lunging a horse that must have been hit. Sigh with no arena.
I started him off in the cattle yard. He went quietly so I progressed to the paddock. He went to take off. I saw it happening and I was ready. I dropped the whip and pulled him around just as he got to the end of the rope with the lunging cavesson. He stopped. I backed up two steps and picked up the whip.
All of a sudden I had a terrified horse on the end of the line. He was shaking. He was getting ready for me to whip the daylights out of him. My heart broke.
I dropped the whip. I spoke gently to him. I approached, not letting him leave until I was standing next to him.
I started softly patting him. I ended up stroking him the whole entire length of his neck on both sides. I told him he was safe and that he was the best horse in the world standing in the paddock next to me at that point in time.
I took my time. He stopped shaking. His eyes closed.
I took him back up to the whip and asked him to go out and lunge.
The sun shone out of me. He trusted me. From that second on even my husband said his expression changed when I came into view. He tried his heart out for me and never put a foot wrong.
The people who didn’t pay their agistment paid it and took him back. My heart still bleeds for him.
She had her teeth done in February. They weren’t good and did cause her quite a bit of pain with bit pressure. Prior to teeth being done if you added firm pressure she would toss her head back at you( nearly hit my face on a few occasions) and come close to rearing. She has always been in a snaffle, at first it was just a basic copper loose ring but she was always playing with it and trying to chew on it. I got her a d ring snaffle with copper rollers for her to spin and she really goes well in that. Since she is so reactive to mouth pain I refuse to put her in anything severe.
Has anyone told you to change the bit?
Yes ride her in a snaffle that she is happy with.
SuzieQ I know it can happen, it does take time though. The first time I tired to longe her as soon as I clipped on the line and stepped back she became frantic and started weaving. She saw the whip and I asked her to move forward she went off full steam ahead, just running. Broke out into a full body sweat. She was going fast and leaning almost sideways into the curve. She nearly slipped a few times. When I tried to pull her in she fought back hard, I dropped the whip and pulled her in closer speaking softly. She calmed down to a brisk trot. Pulled her in a little more crooning at her to go easy. She stopped and just stood there staring at me just terrified. We are doing hand lounging now, no whip to be seen walking around our field or arena working on getting more and more line out. The whip stays in the barn where we do some de sensitizing work, I can now pick it up and walk around her without panic though she will still move off if I shake it, it’s still quick but not panicked. I can touch her with it but she’ll still be flinching the first time.
It is certainly heartbreaking to think of what must have happened to cause those reactions.
The martingale isn’t for head carriage, it’s just to make sure you don’t get whacked in the head or some such if your horse throws it’s head back. I actually only use mine because if I fall I don’t want my horse to trample my nice expensive reins.
Try lunging in side reins, to help her kind of get the idea, but my guess is that if you haven’t been able to get her head down, on the bit, and her moving through her hindquarters then either she, you or both are not prepared to be working this way all the time. You should work with a trainer to help develop the muscle and the position that you need for this type of work. Honestly I wouldn’t let any of my students jump a horse if they weren’t more progressed on the flatwork than you describe yourself and your horse to be at.
[QUOTE=blacknwhite;8142587]
The martingale isn’t for head carriage, it’s just to make sure you don’t get whacked in the head or some such if your horse throws it’s head back. I actually only use mine because if I fall I don’t want my horse to trample my nice expensive reins.
Try lunging in side reins, to help her kind of get the idea, but my guess is that if you haven’t been able to get her head down, on the bit, and her moving through her hindquarters then either she, you or both are not prepared to be working this way all the time. You should work with a trainer to help develop the muscle and the position that you need for this type of work. Honestly I wouldn’t let any of my students jump a horse if they weren’t more progressed on the flatwork than you describe yourself and your horse to be at.[/QUOTE]
I can get her down, on the bit and moving through her hind. I am investigating options to keep it that way without having to constantly remind and have her overcompensate by going peanut pusher. She is fully capable physically of staying together for at least half of our time under saddle, if not more.
So, I think you may just be where you are - she’s starting to understand, and getting stronger, but can’t yet be consistent. The habits and muscling she had when you got her take time to undo, and require really correct, patient, and consistent riding. I have no idea how you ride - this isn’t a criticism, just an observation based on horses I have known. Good eyes on the ground are invaluable for this process.
A standing martingale will not help either one of you with this process. It’ll prevent her from throwing her head way up but not teach her what she is doing wrong (or right). It won’t show her a correct way to carry herself. That’s not what it is meant to do in any event.
[QUOTE=Highflyer;8142441]
There’s really no way to misuse a correctly adjusted running martingale, but it won’t solve your problem either. I think you need to find a trainer to work with you.[/QUOTE]
^^^^This!
Emphasis on the trainer to work with YOU. You are the reason for the up and down head.
Do you have photos or a video of her going under saddle?
I’ve never pushed her to stay collected for very long
It takes time and requires quiet and consistent riding but try riding her in collection for gradually longer and longer periods. Don’t over ride her and give her plenty of breaks on a long rein so she can build muscles without discomfort. A good 20 minutes is far more effective than a poor 60 minutes. Also, try riding outside the ring and train her while hacking (if you have the opportunity) so that she is learning without realizing it. That can take away a lot of the anxiety she still has.
As others have said, the martingale will not help and holding her head down with a standing one, even as a short term fix, probably makes the problem worse in the longer term.
[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;8142434]
The running martingale is for safety only. It is not a training device. You put it on so as the rings reach to the withers or to at least 10cm below the withers. It is only avtivated if the head cones too high for safety and is usually for a horse that lifts their head, grabs the bit and takes off which you did not mention.
The standing martingale is illegal in ponyclub as the horse cannot lift it’s head to help itself if it falls and there is no way I would put it on for jumping.
Your girl’s problem is either pain from injury or lack of muscle or
And you don’t want to hear this…
Because of the rider not riding correctly.
Some lessons on Dressage or flatwork will help you immensely.
This cannot be done by someone who has not been taught. Sidereins do not injure and kill horses. It is trainers using sidereins incorrectly that injure and kill horses.
Lunging in side reins would help your horse.[/QUOTE]
Exactly – the running martingale is for safety, not to train the horse to hold their head in a certain position.
I turn to the running martingale for only TWO circumstances: if I am working with a horse who rears when excited (and I ONLY do this AFTER I have gauged how each individual horse reacts to to pressure - I do NOT put it on a horse who rears and freaks out UNDER pressure) and when I am dealing with a horse who flips their head backwards or grabs the bit and takes off.
I strongly suggest you do NOT try to restrain your horse’s neck. Young and green horses use their neck as balance - it is why they travel “high headed” - the neck acts as a ‘rudder’ for the rest of the body and it is important you give them their head. Focus less on what frame the neck is in and focus MORE on rhythm and balance - once you can achieve a quiet and soft W/T/C ride that is a steady tempo and rhythm no matter what you can graduate to asking the horse to “go round”. I like to have them doing W/T/C calmly with leg yields before I ask them for more contact - and when I ask them for more contact I keep them supple by doing leg yields and constant figure eights to encourage them to use their hind ends and step under themselves.
I also suggest ruling out any back pain, immediately.
It honestly sounds like you have a very typical OTTB, and you are in a very typical situation in which your horse is only reflecting the lack of knowledge for her new job. I suggest trying to learn everything you can about how to train and strongly suggest you seek professional help if this is your first OTTB. From your post it doesn’t sound like you have a bountiful wealth of knowledge about retraining them (and that is okay! we are all here to learn) but it is really important that you understand that her high-headedness is NOT disobedience but likely a balance and (lack of)training issue that needs to be carefully addressed by both you and a professional.
I also suggest looking up the german training scale - it is invaluable for retraining them and I doubt very seriously at this time your horse or you are truly ready for collection. Do NOT ask her for 'collection 'because from what you have typed at this time she (and you) both are not ready!
Thanks everyone for the insights! So martingale is definitely out. Unfortunately I don’t have any horse knowledgeable friends that can watch us so I am going to try and work at least one lesson into my budget so I can get some good eyes on the ground. It very well could be my riding, perhaps I am so used to her moving her head around that my hands are following her when they shouldn’t be. Or that I am so cautious about adding too much contact I am not providing enough? I’d love to get some video of us riding but all of my attempts to set up the camera result in very poor angles making it tough to see exactly what’s going on, and my children are not very steady camera holders lol. She does move better at the indoor arena across the street as opposed to our outdoor here at home, so maybe saving the real work for there would be beneficial too. Hacking out isn’t much of an option, we can go for short ones but it’s all on pavement so I try to keep them short.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8143032]
Exactly – the running martingale is for safety, not to train the horse to hold their head in a certain position.
I turn to the running martingale for only TWO circumstances: if I am working with a horse who rears when excited (and I ONLY do this AFTER I have gauged how each individual horse reacts to to pressure - I do NOT put it on a horse who rears and freaks out UNDER pressure) and when I am dealing with a horse who flips their head backwards or grabs the bit and takes off.
I strongly suggest you do NOT try to restrain your horse’s neck. Young and green horses use their neck as balance - it is why they travel “high headed” - the neck acts as a ‘rudder’ for the rest of the body and it is important you give them their head. Focus less on what frame the neck is in and focus MORE on rhythm and balance - once you can achieve a quiet and soft W/T/C ride that is a steady tempo and rhythm no matter what you can graduate to asking the horse to “go round”. I like to have them doing W/T/C calmly with leg yields before I ask them for more contact - and when I ask them for more contact I keep them supple by doing leg yields and constant figure eights to encourage them to use their hind ends and step under themselves.
I also suggest ruling out any back pain, immediately.
It honestly sounds like you have a very typical OTTB, and you are in a very typical situation in which your horse is only reflecting the lack of knowledge for her new job. I suggest trying to learn everything you can about how to train and strongly suggest you seek professional help if this is your first OTTB. From your post it doesn’t sound like you have a bountiful wealth of knowledge about retraining them (and that is okay! we are all here to learn) but it is really important that you understand that her high-headedness is NOT disobedience but likely a balance and (lack of)training issue that needs to be carefully addressed by both you and a professional.
I also suggest looking up the german training scale - it is invaluable for retraining them and I doubt very seriously at this time your horse or you are truly ready for collection. Do NOT ask her for 'collection 'because from what you have typed at this time she (and you) both are not ready![/QUOTE]
She is the first OTTB I am retraining. And I’ve done lots of reading on it trying to gather as much knowledge as I can. I had planned on working with a trainer more but some family emergencies prevented that until recently. We are going back to basics for a while and I will not be asking her for anything beyond basics until guided my a pro.
First, I’m not a trainer. So take my input with that in mind. As someone else said, she’s probably just where she is in the process. With more time and correct work, she will probably trust and understand more and give more. Having ruled out physical and equipment issues, ignore the head and ride the body. This has been a very important lesson for me to be mindful of 100% of the time with my most recent horse, a very sensitive OTTB.
He’s been in retraining for a little over a year now. Not long after beginning to work with him, my trainer and I realized he’s going to be a long-term project, and we committed to the long haul. Now, a year later, he’s at right about the same stage at which your girl sounds like she is. As slow as it is, we see steady progress. My guess is that he’ll “be there” in another year or two.
Obviously, each horse is different. I feel that putting a martingale on my horse would undermine everything we’ve been trying to instill in him: he can trust contact, he can move into contact and back off of it and he’ll still be safe.
I guess the advice I’m offering is make haste slowly.
Best wishes!
