I was an involved owner at a farm that catered to clientele who were often less involved. Before moving in, I said up-front to the management that I would schedule and be present for all routine health appointments unless I told them otherwise. They told me that was not the norm for their clientele and that their pricing structure did include having one of their experienced staff attend these visits and report back; I said that that was great, but not for me. It wasn’t a problem. The only downside to this is that my trainer did at one point tell me flat out “I have no idea what’s going on with your horse medically because you take care of all that, so I hesitate to make recommendations since I’m going off of your info, not the vet’s directly.”
I self-select out of programs that discourage owner involvement. It’s worth asking these questions up front.
As a trainer, I am so respectful of owners who try to be present for non-routine vet visits. They get educated and more engaged. OP asked a good question asking for feedback.
Ghazzu, are you aware if there is even any legality in a trainer FORBIDDING an owner to be present when a vet works on their horse. Is there anything in the practice act of your state?
I doubt the trainer has a leg to stand on legally.
Even if the trainer pays the bill, they still do not own the animal.
I don’t believe this is specifically addressed in my state’s practice act.
But in any case, I would not take on such a trainer as a client.
Life is hard enough without being put in the middle of nonsense like that.
As for those who would argue that “but it takes the vet more time to explain this or that to the clueless owner”–so what?
Client education is part and parcel of practice. I can always charge for my time.
I would echo those saying this is one of the advantages to me of being in a full service barn. Particularly when I’ve had horses in training out of town or out of the state I simply can’t be there. Even in town my work schedule has often limited my presence. Fortunately many of the vets I’ve dealt with are very good about calling personally to update me and discuss the horse’s needs or plan of care. That being said, I do like to be present for vet visits whenever possible and I would have a problem with a barn that discouraged my presence particularly during lameness exams or emergencies. I will typically drop everything for a true emergency call, though I also expect the barn to be handling it and have the vet on their way before I arrive.
I’m in a full care program, and I am VERY hands on with my horse. For general and emergency appointments, I let the barn staff manage the appointments. For ongoing issues or special appointments, I always try to meet the vet, and if I cannot meet him, he calls me directly to tell me how it went. Now, I am not your average owner, and I do things that most owners and even trainers probably don’t do (monitor body temperature, breathing rate, etc… - horse has anhidrosis). I work in the digital radiography world, so we often look at the radiographs together and sometimes I even import them into my software to see if my algorithms show something different. The vet is super cool and I think he enjoys geeking around with me!
The horse also is not a typical horse, and has conformation defects that can make him tricky to diagnose. I spend 30 minutes a day just currying this horse, and am very aware of every inch of his body and know when something feels or looks different. Full care programs are great but they don’t generally pay this attention to the small details - there is just no time for it. So I often know when something is off before others do - even if it is very slight. I’m not sure if this makes me a cool client to have in the barn or a giant PIA?
As for treatment planning, the vet and I work together with the farrier and trainer to develop the right plan for my horse, and I’m very involved in the decisions. Barn staff is absolutely amazing. I was in Paris in January and my sweet horse had severe laminitis. The barn ladies bought him SoftRide boots on their personal credit cards as it was late at night and they didn’t have access to the barn card and overnighted the boots for this horse. So, it’s not that I don’t trust them - they are amazing! It’s just that I love to be aware of what is going on and I love to get the news right from the vet’s mouth so I can make the best decisions. Last time I missed an appointment, my trainer told me to just call the vet for the rundown because she knew I would ask all kinds of clinical questions that she couldn’t answer, and everyone is a-okay with that.
I’ve been at a full-care barn where things like vet visits (routine) were scheduled without informing borders (boarding contract indicated vaccines happened on a schedule, as did worming, so clients never got a “hey, vaccines next tuesday!” heads up). Farm calls were for multiple horses so situations like this, where a horse was getting checked out for something more significant without an owner present, were pretty common.
At that point, it really comes down to the type of owner: some owners aren’t able to be present, or aren’t really interested in it. They’re willing to get the details from their trainer (whom they expect to be present for the visit). On the other hand, this barn also had owners who would reschedule other commitments and take time off if necessary to be present, so they can get information first hand and ask follow up questions directly.
If a trainer, or barn manager, ever indicated I was unwelcome I would be stupefied, horrified, and furious pretty much in that order. And if “owners not present for vet visits” is a rule for a trainer/barn, then that is not a barn I should be at. Ever.
I’ve done it both ways - trainer has been my eyes & ears in the vetting process due to my inability to reschedule commitments. She knows my horse, she’s well educated, and she knows that I want the details as clearly as she can give them to me. I do not expect that it would go so well with a trainer who were less willing to ask follow up questions on my behalf, or as attentive to the details and bigger picture. I’ve also been “that person” who was the only owner for a list of horses seeing the vet that day. Vets, in my experience, are very gracious and willing to answer questions asked, and explain what it is they’re seeing/looking for - and an added bonus, asking them directly eliminates a middle man & any miscommunication in trying to relay things like observations, diagnoses, and prognoses.
Best thing to do is to ask the trainer or BO what the policy is. The higher end barns often run a very tight ship. If it is important to you that owners are welcome to be present during vet appointments, clarify the barn’s policy up front before you sign the boarding contract.
Another option to consider is, during the day of the vet appointment, make yourself 100% available via phone. Ask that the vet call you immediately after he assesses the horse while he is at the barn. Have a pen and some paper handy. Write down everything he says so you have notes to reference after the call. He will make some recommendations for treatment. You’ll approve a treatment plan and the vet will proceed with the plan. Like an earlier poster mentioned, it is highly advisable that you have at least some basic knowledge of horse anatomy. If you don’t need “real-time” feedback on the vet visit, asking the vet to call you at the end of the day may satisfy your needs.
I can certainly understand and appreciate the trainer’s concern. I would think the trainer’s concerns could be overcome if you invited her to speak with your vet directly.
They would have been if the trainer had joined us, yes. I have no issue with her not wanting to opine on what she did not know directly. It’s a consideration for the OP to keep in mind if she joins a program like this- she should discuss the degree of involvement she wants to have, and wants staff to have, and make sure that matches up with the services provided.
Some owners have also owned multiple horses for decades and are very much in contact with their trainers and vets privately even if they aren’t there psycally. Mistake to assume they don’t care or want to know based on what you observe or what the barn grapevine shares, many owners don’t care to share their horses health information with other boarders.
Nothing nefarious, they just don’t want to get the inevitable unsolicited advice or forced to defend their choices in their treatment of their horses. Even big full service barns can be really bad about nosey know it alls.
Sure, some owners don’t care but never assume anything about fellow boarders/ clients and pass judgement.
In a full care situation, and I’m rarely there for vet visits due to my work schedule- they usually come out during the day and split the farm call, and it’s just not realistic for me to take time off to be there. For bigger diagnostic things my trainer will call me afterwards with any results, and we talk about what to do with that information. Quite frankly she has a lot more experience and knowledge than I do, and my horse is thriving under her care, so I trust her recommendations (which she discusses with the vet, obvi). I’ve never been discouraged from being there the few times I’ve been able to make the timing work, and both vet and trainer have been lovely about explaining what they’re doing and answering all questions, but I trust them to make healthy decisions for my horse if I can’t be there. It’s one of the perks of being in that type of program as a working ammy!
Really? If you went to the doctor you would be OK getting a diagnosis with no explanation, because you should have googled it beforehand? I don’t disagree that horse owners should know basic anatomy, but if there is some info lacking, no matter how basic, I believe it is absolutely the vet’s responsibility to inform you.
well this client likely knows more vet med than the average trainer, so I will attend. There is nothing worse than getting information filtered incorrectly. yes that has happened and I knew the moment I heard the information that it was wrong.
I agree with Ghazzu that part of a vets work role is to inform and educate the client. There is no magic knowledge a trainer has that a client cannot learn as well. Having BOTH client and trainer present makes sure both are on the same page.
Present or not, I do not believe that there is ever “a dumb owner” question. If you take your kid to the doctor, would you restrict your conversation to the immediate issue? I don’t think so. A medical professional (vet or doctor) needs to be aware of the “whole” picture. Asking whether turmeric is a good idea or not, is a chance for the vet to find out what supplements, and feeding is really going on and get a better picture of the care and history of that horse. What kind of vet would object to that? Not a smart one. So please let’s stop the idea that there are “dumb questions” because education is power, whether it is about your horse, yourself or the state of the world. Please people.
I think most vets are happy to confer directly with owners and to do whatever education is necessary. Some of the busy, high-end performance horse vets (and farriers) who work for large, lucrative show barns would happily just have the pro and barn staff handle the horse at the appointment. It’s just more efficient (except for the vet having to put in the time to do a special and perhaps repetitive call to the owner.)
The barns I have seen that work this way have a standing weekly appointment with their chosen vet (they did choose a highly-respected and expensive clinic). The way this worked was that the trainer probably told the owner that they thought there was some problem the vet should look at when he came round next. This is the owner’s opportunity to have a longer discussion with the trainer about the nature of the problem, what was likely to happen at the appointment and the opportunity to move things around so they could be there if they liked.
When I was there, and as someone who attends all of my horse’s vet and farrier appointments, all this meant was that I put my horse on the list for the next appointment and I showed up. Being the hands-on owner, the trainer took the back seat… she didn’t stay for the whole lameness exam but was freed up to do other things. I (and perhaps the vet) filled her in on what we discovered and did, and what kind of care my gelding would need next.
IMO, you should not do business with someone who does anything to discourage transparency and whatever degree of involvement the owner desires.
One thing I left out of my previous reply that I think is worth mentioning is that my vet will always tell me “it’s my job to get your horse performing, and I there is a lot I can do to make your horse feel better, but in general the best treatment is rest and time.” What I have come to notice is that if I am not at my horse’s vet appointments, the direction that is given to the vet is to get my horse back to sound and to do what it takes.
Now, I love my horse and I do, indeed, want my horse to feel better, no matter what it takes. I also want the best long-term outcome for my horse. I don’t like quick fixes, and sadly this sport is full of them. For example, I have seen owners inject sore back muscles to get a horse to compete when the horse probably would have benefited more from rest and recovery. Why? The reality is that rest and recovery pulls a horse out of training and off the show circuit, which is not in the best interest of the trainer or some riders, for that matter. So, to protect my horse and to make sure I am the one driving the decisions, I make sure I am a part of the diagnosis and treatment. I don’t think any trophy or title is worth taking shortcuts with my horse.
I “think” @Scribbler’s point is that if the owner knows the problem is in the hoof, or the hock or the knee, etc. It would be beneficial for the owner to be informed as to the anatomy of that area of the horse. Vets, like many professionals, have a propensity to speak in a certain language. The more the owner knows about the anatomy of the area that is being examined, the more the owner will will get out of the discussion.
