In lots of barns, it is optional. If a trainer/BM discourages/forbids it, you most likely have an ethics problem.
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When I worked at a high level barn, we did NOT want owners around if we had the vet out doing pre-season soundness exams on multiple horses because we wanted the findings of other people’s horses to be confidential. if you wanted to be there for your own horse, then it could not be done on the “soundness day” and had to be scheduled separate (and cost more). Of course the vet could/would talk to clients directly via the phone. We never had a client take issue with this, as they all understood the desire for confidence.
This is a valid consideration.
While an owner absolutely has the right to witness or have access to all info on their own horse, it does not extend to the animals belonging to anyone else.
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It’s kind of a bigger barn thing where vets see multiple horses with each visit but, unfortunately, some owners have no filters when it comes to vets treating other people’s horses. They’ll ask inappropriate questions that have nothing to do with them or their horses and are none of their business and can’t keep their mouths shut about things they may see and hear. Often drawing the wrong conclusions.
Personal experience with this. Twice. Once vet was at barn to treat a really bad EPM case. Was asked by a boarder client why he was there, he replied mostly for the bad EPM case with very poor prognosis, , she asked what horse and he declined. Guess she saw him pulling a coggins on mine a bit later and, voila, I’m getting calls concerned about my horses bad EPM and asking if we are going to put it down, fielded those questions for a year after that. Good thing I wasn’t trying to sell it.
The other incident was hock injections and I was there, There was a good bit of drainage at one site and Chatty Cathy comes right up next to the horse in the treatment area and starts the OMG what’s wrong, what are you doing, why are you doing it, why is it bleeding , why don’t you just feed a supplement instead of this etc. And when are you getting to my horse. All while vet is hunched over under the horse working on the upper, inner hock site with a really big needle. He finally finished that site and before going to the next one told her to shut up and let him work. If course she told the tale of the rude vet and the terrible vet clinic and my bloody horse all over the state for some time. Talking a grown woman here, not a 12 year old.
Anyway, there’s reasons for preferring most owners stay away in big full service barns and it’s not just because the trainers would rather handle it, the vets would rather they handled it too when they are treating multiple horses in a single appointment. Questions are fine but there’s a time and a place.
Couple of posts upthread, somebody said when they weren’t at the appointment, the trainer said to just get the horse back to work. But owners not there so? Is vet telling her that later? and if she wants it rested, she doesn’t need the vet to tell the trainer anything. It’s her horse, her decision. If they feel intimidated speaking up, then perhaps they move, or not, depends on their situation.
This whole issue is not as black and white as some think. It depends on what’s best for each individual, not perceptions of what others should do or not do often based on incomplete or second hand information.
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This is a very good point. Not relevant for every barn, but certainly has merit at high end barns where the horses and the clients are well known and gossip is at a premium.
“Why don’t you just feed a supplement instead of injecting?” Someone actually thought that was a serious question? Uggh.
Unfortunately I think we have all experienced that kind of crazy.
Wait, what.?.
My horse, my money pays the vet bill, if i want to be there ill bloody well be there. If the trainer or whomever doesn’t like it that’s too bad.
and if it’s a major issue then it’s time to find another barn.
ditto the farrier
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I don’t discuss my horse’s health care with anyone except on a “need to know” basis. I also don’t ask about others’ care. I did have someone once yell down a barn aisle, “Hey, is Pookah all right? I saw the vet here.” In theory, no matter what I said after that, his price just went down for anyone within earshot.
ETA: And, along the lines of the hock injections/“just feed him supplements” topic. It was the case that my middle-aged, jumping horse (who had had an initial set of hock x-rays in the past) was getting his hocks injected.
I knew which drugs/substances were going into which joints.
I knew the physiology of what each of those was for.
I know why the vet (and I) were doing this treatment.
I know the risks.
I know how to do the after care, what to look for, and the importance of keeping any eye on the horse.
I know that I’d be having a different conversation with my vet if we were going to go into the coffin joint rather than the lower joints of the hock.
I know why we chose this treatment as opposed to a systemic thing like Adequan or an oral supplement or even a change in turnout or work program.
I got all this by attending my horses’ vet appointments and by learning from good trainers.
And in the market where I live now, I see people who think injecting the lower joints of the hock is really extreme or somehow not worth the risk and on-par with Adequan and even oral supplements.
So I appreciate the need for privacy IF one also is hanging out with folks who haven’t gotten such an education from their vets.
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In re: the “confidentiality” issue of vet visits. If you are so concerned about confidentiality, schedule your horse separately and let those who don’t care and/or don’t believe in keeping their horse’s medical history a secret from potential buyers enjoy the benefit of a group vet call. Geez Louise people.
Confidentiality shouldn’t be an issue, but it is. People talk and they spread misinformation. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned their horse was getting blood pulled for a coggins and word got around that her horse had EPM. The rumor had legs for a year.
Here is another anecdote. We run a small sales barn. Many years ago we had three grey mares in the barn. MNT was visiting our barn when grey mare A was being seen by a vet for a suspensory. Months later grey mare B is up for sale. Potential buyers are interested in grey mare B. They also know MNT who they contact. MNT tells potential buyers grey mare B has suspensory issues. Completely false information was shared with potential buyers and a sale was lost.
I completely understand if trainers, BM’s or owners don’t want Chatty Kathie around for a vet appointment. It might be less about secrecy and more about limiting the nonsensical rumor-mongering that can take on a life of its own.
Not saying owners shouldn’t be present during vet appointments, just saying at the higher end barns, I can see why it might be a stated policy. And that policy doesn’t preclude the owner from having a telephone conversation with the vet if they so choose.
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Any reasonable trainer would encourage their owners to be involved, informed and educated. You only improve in those three categories by showing up, observing and asking questions. It is YOUR horse and YOUR vet bill. Most vets are happier to speak directly to owners than trainers, in my experience coming from that side of the fence. If an owner with zero knowledge and loads of questions has a vet that doesn’t have the patience for these questions, then this is NOT a match. Sure… there are some vets with a lot less patience that would prefer to just recommend treatments, have the trainer give the OK and then send owner the bill, but that kind of vet just isn’t suited for an owner that needs a little more hand holding.
That said, I guess I’m lucky. I’m at a pretty full service barn and the vet / owner relationship gets completely tailored to whatever the owner wants. Some clients are pretty hands-off, others are involved in all aspects of care and never miss a beat. Even if I was not a vet tech… I couldn’t ever see being discouraged from participating in my horse’s own care & decision making. That is just completely absurd to me.
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I believe the “no, you can’t be there for the day of multiple lameness exams of horses that don’t belong to you” example above was a policy set by the trainer. That was done, of course, on behalf of all owners in the barn. I’d be pretty bummed as an owner if I had to pay my own, separate call fee because the trainer and vet couldn’t keep my horse’s evaluation confidential.
Geez Louise not everybody wants their horses condition and their decisions for treating their horse to be the gossip highlight behind their backs every time they ride into the ring at home or at a show forever whether it’s for sale or not any more then we want speculation about our personal medical history or health shared.
I still run into people telling me I was lucky I did not lose my DWB to EPM and that was, like, 12-15 years ago. And it was and still is a stocky TB. The horse that was PTS was the same color and sex and a DWB because, as usual, some of the details just weren’t exactly correct since it was non of the gossips business so they were not really in the know. Just eavesdropping assuming and shooting their mouth off.
This stuff never ever goes away and horse folk have long memories.
I still maintain that it is an ethics issue for those of us who are supporting the no owner policy - this is a completely unregulated industry and too many horse sellers DO NOT disclose issues. The policy of “buyer beware” is still very much alive in the horse community. If there is a need for confidentiality, make a separate appointment and/or ask that the visit and examination be private. Consulting with a vet should be a mutual exchange of information and the vet’s advise should not be filtered through the trainer (who may mix things up if there are multiple “messages” to relay) or at the end of a long day for the vet to sit on the phone talking to multiple clients. Mistakes and memory lapses are easy to make. Gossip is still gossip and if your potential buyer listens to that, and/or you have a reputation that is shaky, then yes, horse folk DO have long memories.
If I pay the bills, I will be overseeing ALL my horse’s care. If I own a horse I am responsible for his welfare - period. The more I know the better MY decisions will be.
I do not see that handing over decision making to somebody who has a vested interest in making an income from my horse, is a good idea.
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Just because an owner is not there does not mean they are handing over decision making. That’s an assumption that’s not always supported by fact, especially now in the day of cell phones and texting. And I WAS there the day of the hock injections and the day my " DWB almost died of EPM". Unfortunately so were Chatty Cathy and Nosey Nellie who spread the word to one an all.
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It’s not all about you, however.
Couldn’t agree more, mvp! Seems like there are plenty of ways to protect confidentiality without penalizing the owner who wants or needs to be present for their horse’s exam!
I really don’t understand how this would even happen–just tell “Chatty Cathy” to leave. Period. Maybe you just have disrespectful people in your barn, but at mine, all I would have to say to someone is that this is a delicate procedure that requires the vet to focus and the horse to stand still and to please leave the area–and they would. Now, I am the BO, so maybe it carries more weight when I say it, but my horse had hock injections a few months ago and one of the boarders politely asked if she could watch–she asked myself and my vet. We both said yes because she just stood quietly out of the way and asked some questions when the vet was done. Of course, I don’t feel the need to keep my horse’s medical information uber secret–that’s the thing with horses. There is no exam room at the barn to take them into. Unless you book your appointment when no one is likely to be around, someone might see/hear what is going on.
In terms of anything potentially communicable, other people in the barn have a right to know about that–their horses live there too.
And for people saying high end barns NEED to keep lameness/vet exams private from everyone so there is no gossip and have potential buyers walking away from purchases because of incorrect medical gossip–well, that’s horses. If people are stupid enough to make purchase decisions based on medical issues (real or imagined) heard about from third hand gossip, then they are not very smart buyers. People buy (or don’t buy) horse for lots of idiotic reasons. I think there is just as much precedent for horse sellers being dishonest about a horse’s medical issues and trying to actively hide information as there is for buyers getting the wrong information and choosing not to buy.
None of that is an excuse for not permitting an owner to be at a vet appointment for their horse that they are paying for.
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There is absolutely no good reason to ban owners from being present at their own horses vet appointment.
I would be moving ASAP if I was told I could not attend. I would be livid if a vet and trainer decided on any sort of treatment or diagnostics without me or my consent.
This is no different than a parent being told they are not allowed to attend their own childs doctors appt. As an owner you are your horses advocate, you have a responsibility to your horse. Unless you can guarantee with absolute certainty that your trainer has the same goals, the same priorities, the same ideas and values when it comes to horsemanship then you shouldn’t be letting them ask all the questions and/or make decisions for you.
I spent several years working as an A circuit groom and BM. We never had an issue with confidentiality. Only the owner of the horse being treated was ever allowed near the horse or the vet.
If a barn has so many issues with boarders starting rumours than maybe they need to sit down with them and discuss it. Don’t penalize the person who has a right to know what’s going on because chatty Kathy can’t keep her mouth shut.
P.S. if a vet came tomorrow to look at my horses my trainer would know less than a years worth of their history. I on the other hand can go back 11 years for the 15yo, and 8 years for the 9yo. I’ve been the sole owner for both horses other than their breeders. Who do you think is more valuable to the vet…
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