Australian Shepherd Help

[libgrrl]

@Limitless;6442096

Although I have not witnessed any of the bites, I’m told that there was no warning (growling, etc.) with any of them. The first bite to the owner’s SO was bad. The recent bite to owner’s SO occurred when she came downstairs to see that the dog had thrown up. She moved to let dog outside so she could clean up, and he went after her upper leg in quick succession 3 times. She had a scrape from a tooth, but no puncture. Now I’m going to assume that she was aggravated and maybe moved quickly or something to that effect, but I that is an assumption on my part.

He could be guarding the vomit. That isn’t uncommon in some resource guarders.

@Limitless;6442096

I’m wondering if an Aussie rescue would take him with a bite history. It sounds great, like a problem solved, but once he’s gone to a new home, and if something happens and they choose to euthanize the dog, isn’t it the same thing anyway? Once he out of the owner’s hands, he has no control over the dog’s future.

We’ve dealt with a number of sharp shy Aussies at the shelter I used to work with, and most rescues will not even consider a biter, I’m afraid. And like some others have mentioned, we’ve seen a number of Aussies with unsound temperament of late.

With regard to “my” dog – I may have made her seem quite a bit more of a public menace than she truly is. I have a fenced backyard, and she is always supervised when outside (she frankly hates being out of the house – she runs outside, does what she needs to do, and runs back in!) The bite(s) happened years ago, and she has not been a problem since with her highly managed life. She was actually quasi-feral on intake, and apparently had recently had pups since her teats were still hanging practically to the ground. She was only about 15 lbs and looked so pathetic I brought her home kind of as an experiment, and she stayed. She is actually the sweetest most demonstrably loving dog – the degree to which she has adapted to life as a house dog is truly remarkable. That said, I am still keenly aware of what she did five years ago, and will always manage her with that in mind.

[Horsegal984]

He can still very much be trained to herd. HOWEVER most herding trainers use sheep, and it it NOT acceptable for a dog to bite sheep. Which would likely happen with this dogs already low inhibition. The trainer will correct him fast with a quick rap of the staff, and I’ll bet money the dog will then o after the trainer. So yes, while he could be trained to herd, I do not think it is a good idea/occupation for him. Best case he snaps at trainer, worst case he learns to like chasing and biting even more, and converts herdin drive to prey drive.

If anything agility may be better, as it will help build confidence that could be lacking, and will improve communication between him and the handler.

[Riverotter]

Honestly, you might.
Has the dog been seen by a vet? I had one once who bit with no warning and no aggravation. If there was a certain kind of motion, he nailed it - that was all.
He had a brain tumor. I had to have him put down.

It’s unlikely, but look into it.

IF you decide to take this dog (notice the really big IF) My first step would be roadwork. Find a nice, deserted stretch of road, go out about 5 AM and arrange yourselves so that you are in the car in the driver’s seat and holding onto the dog’s leash out the window - 18 inches of leash, MAX.
Very slowly ease off the brakes and coast.

The dog will quickly figure out to walk, then trot alongside.
The dog is in total control of your speed. If the leash is straight out, the dog is happy, if he’s pulling ahead, go faster, never, ever let him lag behind, slow down for him instantly.
If he is tired and wanting to stop, then stop, hop him into the backseat and go home.

Once dogs figure this game out, I have yet to meet one that wasn’t BLISSFULLY happy about this. And you will find that dogs will delightedly take far more exercise then people think. I will always remember the coonhound who figured out that even on leash he could run as far and as fast as he wanted, and went over a mile at a 21mph gallop before settling down and trotting another 3 miles at 16mph (having the speedometer is fun, dogs are fast) before even beginning to slow down.
Happy, happy dog - who went home and slept, inside the house, instead of tearing it up (and until you’ve seen 90+ pounds of coonhound shred a house you have NO idea!)

First health, then exercise, next, supervision.
Take off the dog’s collar, and run the collar through the hand loop of a leash, then buckle the collar back on - the leash is now permanently attached.
Take the snap, and keep it snapped to your belt loop 24/7. If the dog is not attached to you (or hubby), it is in a crate.
Everyone always asks when they can take it off.
A year.
Minimum.

If this seems like a lot of work, well, it is.
And if it too much work for you, sweetie, that’s fine.
What you need to ask yourself is NOT if you’re justified in putting this dog down, this dog who has bitten people. What you need to ask yourself is if you’d put down a happy, sweet, mellow dog who only wants to please you, but is black. Or short-haired. Or too big. Or bully looking. Because I can promise you one is being put to sleep even as I type this, at some shelter driving distance from you.

And if you decide to go save that dog instead - don’t let ANYONE make you feel bad about it. They’re just as free to adopt Cujo as you are.

[SuckerForHorses]

[QUOTE=Riverotter;6442174]
IF you decide to take this dog (notice the really big IF) My first step would be roadwork. Find a nice, deserted stretch of road, go out about 5 AM and arrange yourselves so that you are in the car in the driver’s seat and holding onto the dog’s leash out the window - 18 inches of leash, MAX.
Very slowly ease off the brakes and coast.

The dog will quickly figure out to walk, then trot alongside.
The dog is in total control of your speed. If the leash is straight out, the dog is happy, if he’s pulling ahead, go faster, never, ever let him lag behind, slow down for him instantly.
If he is tired and wanting to stop, then stop, hop him into the backseat and go home.[/QUOTE]

:eek::eek::eek: This is the worst advice I think I’ve ever seen on this board. Real smart…let the dog run along side the car…where it could suddenly dart towards the car and get run over, or decide it likes to chase tires (and being and Aussie, I can see where this would happen…)

[snydere02]

[QUOTE=Limitless;6442096]

I do adore him, and for all I know, a life with us, another dog, with lots of exercise as well as serious management could be just what he needs and he could be a completely different dog. But at the same time, I wonder if even with those changes, we could end up having the same issues the current owner has.[/QUOTE]

From my experience with herding dogs, they nip but its a behavior than can be redirected, even if its a “biting” behavior. I currently have a Pembrooke Welsh Corgi (3years old) and an Aussie (8 months old). I love them both but seperatly and together they are different dogs. With the kids and without they are different dogs. The kids will ride their bikes and the aussie used to think it was fun to chase them and nip at their clothes to make them go a differnent direction. It’s just a natural behavior that has to be redirected. The corgi used to do the same thing but I learned that if he started to show possessiveness and trying to herd me, if I growled at him he would stop. Eventually he stoped completly and has never growled since. It’s their natural instint to herd and when they cannot get the proper exercise it can be turned into bad beahvior. Ever since I have moved out to the country the corgi has loved it and been a much better dog than when we lived in the city. I honestly think exercise will solve most of his issues.

If it was me I would take the dog but definatly crate train. I would leave him in the crate whenever you have him inside alone to avoid any issues with the cats. My aussie stays in his crate while I am at work… we are still going through puppy stages and he thinks chewing on a leather couch is fun. If you try training him to be good with the cats and give rewards when he is good with them will help. It’s all a learning process.

It’s always worth the try to help out a dog who is in need of a good home. It may take some time but every dog can learn a new trick.

[wendy]

She moved to let dog outside so she could clean up, and he went after her upper leg in quick succession 3 times. She had a scrape from a tooth, but no puncture.

didn’t actually break the skin? well, that’s a REALLY good sign- the dog is just nipping, not trying to kill people, and is capable of controlling his teeth.

someone with experience needs to see this dog in person, though, to make a proper evaluation.

are you (the potential adopters) capable of taking the dog on? some of these dogs need an incredible amount of exercise before they even begin to become sane. Like a young horse who is on stall rest- they can’t even think past their need to move. Most hard-core working dogs really need a good 10 to 20 miles of hard running most days, and they ALSO need lots of mental exercise. If you just let the dog out in the yard the dog won’t self-exercise even if you have hundreds of acres to run on- you’ll have to go out with the dog yourself, on foot or on horseback. The ideal is to have the dog actually work stock every day, so the dog gets in the necessary miles of running while simultaneously working the mind.

If you’ve never actually owned a high-drive herding dog it can be quite an experience. Other kinds of high-drive dogs, like bird dogs or hunting hounds, are very different- many of the non-herding-dogs who are high drive are perfectly content with sufficient physical exercise, but herding dogs are not. You can run them all day and they still need to work.

[Limitless]

Thank you everyone for your information and words of advice. The Aussie’s owner is having him evaluated at the end of the month by another trainer and he’s going to see what he has to say. I’m going to suggest he at least contact the herding dog trainer to see if he would be interested in giving it a try. I’ve already suggested that the dog needs more exercise daily as well as some of those interactive dog toys and more crating when left alone. If he wants to try to keep the dog, obviously some things would need to change.

All else fails, I’d consider giving it a try, with some ground rules (like tethered to us if inside the house at all times due to cats, outside kennel when we are at work, shaded, insulated, heated, whatever is needed and regular work either at agility classes or herding if possible). But my cats deserve the enjoy the rest of their life in peace, and hopefully it will be many more years!

We do have some acreage, but no livestock as of yet. Our own dog is never outside unattended, therefore we spend a lot of time outside ourselves. But I honestly don’t know if that will be enough for the Aussie. After spending time with him alone this past weekend, I can see how this dog could be exhausting. Our dog as well as the Aussie are e-collar trained, which is very helpful. And yes, I honestly think when he’s biting he’s really nipping to herd, but I haven’t seen it, so I can’t be positive.

If anyone can recommend any thing else, thank you.

[Riverotter]

[QUOTE=SuckerForHorses;6442219]
:eek::eek::eek: This is the worst advice I think I’ve ever seen on this board. Real smart…let the dog run along side the car…where it could suddenly dart towards the car and get run over, or decide it likes to chase tires (and being and Aussie, I can see where this would happen…)[/QUOTE]

Reading comprehension, heard of it?

With a few inches of leash, not a whole lot of trouble can be gotten into. Literally hundreds of show and working dogs are exercised this way. It’s so common, it has a name, it’s called roadwork - look it up.
You can also do it with a bike. And no, it does not promote chasing.

Here, in case your search skills are as bad as your reading skills;
http://www.dobermantalk.com/189708-post10.html
http://www.gilbertk9.com/Articles/HowToDevelopThighs.html
Notice a professional handler advertises that she offers - roadwork!
http://lindaclarkhandling.com/services.htm

But no, why listen to all those dog professionals about an efficient, humane way to exercise a dog?

[SuckerForHorses]

[QUOTE=Riverotter;6442489]
Reading comprehension, heard of it?

With a few inches of leash, not a whole lot of trouble can be gotten into. Literally hundreds of show and working dogs are exercised this way. It’s so common, it has a name, it’s called roadwork - look it up.
You can also do it with a bike. And no, it does not promote chasing.

Here, in case your search skills are as bad as your reading skills;
http://www.dobermantalk.com/189708-post10.html
http://www.gilbertk9.com/Articles/HowToDevelopThighs.html
Notice a professional handler advertises that she offers - roadwork!
http://lindaclarkhandling.com/services.htm

But no, why listen to all those dog professionals about an efficient, humane way to exercise a dog?[/QUOTE]

I know how to read just fine. Opinions are like @$$holes, everybody has one. My opinion is that this is terrible advice.

[snydere02]

[QUOTE=SuckerForHorses;6442521]
I know how to read just fine. Opinions are like @$$holes, everybody has one. My opinion is that this is terrible advice.[/QUOTE]

I completly agree… there is no way I would ever walk my dog this way. I have used a bike once and for sure the dog darted to chase something and I fliped over my handle bars and cracked my helmet.

[Crockpot]

didn’t actually break the skin? well, that’s a REALLY good sign- the dog is just nipping, not trying to kill people, and is capable of controlling his teeth.

someone with experience needs to see this dog in person, though, to make a proper evaluation.

are you (the potential adopters) capable of taking the dog on? some of these dogs need an incredible amount of exercise before they even begin to become sane. Like a young horse who is on stall rest- they can’t even think past their need to move. Most hard-core working dogs really need a good 10 to 20 miles of hard running most days, and they ALSO need lots of mental exercise. If you just let the dog out in the yard the dog won’t self-exercise even if you have hundreds of acres to run on- you’ll have to go out with the dog yourself, on foot or on horseback. The ideal is to have the dog actually work stock every day, so the dog gets in the necessary miles of running while simultaneously working the mind.

If you’ve never actually owned a high-drive herding dog it can be quite an experience. Other kinds of high-drive dogs, like bird dogs or hunting hounds, are very different- many of the non-herding-dogs who are high drive are perfectly content with sufficient physical exercise, but herding dogs are not. You can run them all day and they still need to work

From my experience with herding dogs, they nip but its a behavior than can be redirected, even if its a “biting” behavior. I currently have a Pembrooke Welsh Corgi (3years old) and an Aussie (8 months old). I love them both but seperatly and together they are different dogs. With the kids and without they are different dogs. The kids will ride their bikes and the aussie used to think it was fun to chase them and nip at their clothes to make them go a differnent direction. It’s just a natural behavior that has to be redirected. The corgi used to do the same thing but I learned that if he started to show possessiveness and trying to herd me, if I growled at him he would stop. Eventually he stoped completly and has never growled since. It’s their natural instint to herd and when they cannot get the proper exercise it can be turned into bad beahvior. Ever since I have moved out to the country the corgi has loved it and been a much better dog than when we lived in the city. I honestly think exercise will solve most of his issues.

:yes:Thanks to both posters for explaining better than I did.

[cbv]

Not my experience…and I have three…

Can’t address this particular dog but have some experience with herding dogs and my experience does not fit the description below though I hear similar often.

I have two border collies and an ACD. Have had two previous border collies. They do enjoy focused training like agility, and chasing the ball/frisbee, and if you let the hard core (two of the four border collies, definitely not the ACD) fetchers bug you into it they will go all day. But have to? No.

None of mine have ever run 10 - 20 miles in a day that I know of (one used to jog 4 miles with me when I was younger) or learned to herd sheep though they all come from working lines and for the most part working parents.

We hike around our our woods once or twice a day on weekends fall, winter and spring, often play fetch and swim and boat ride on summer weekends. But my husband and I work, and though we live on a farm the dogs are in a fenced yard or in the house when we aren’t home. In the evenings we mostly just hang out in the house with them of maybe go out to the ‘fetch-it’ field for a short session. And they are normal dogs, not crazy, don’t bite or tear up the house, or chase the horses or cats. Not everyone’s cup of tea but fit nicely in our not that active lifestyle.

Now the two year old laborador we just inherited is another matter…

[QUOTE=wendy;6442289]

are you (the potential adopters) capable of taking the dog on? some of these dogs need an incredible amount of exercise before they even begin to become sane. Like a young horse who is on stall rest- they can’t even think past their need to move. Most hard-core working dogs really need a good 10 to 20 miles of hard running most days, and they ALSO need lots of mental exercise. If you just let the dog out in the yard the dog won’t self-exercise even if you have hundreds of acres to run on- you’ll have to go out with the dog yourself, on foot or on horseback. The ideal is to have the dog actually work stock every day, so the dog gets in the necessary miles of running while simultaneously working the mind.

If you’ve never actually owned a high-drive herding dog it can be quite an experience. Other kinds of high-drive dogs, like bird dogs or hunting hounds, are very different- many of the non-herding-dogs who are high drive are perfectly content with sufficient physical exercise, but herding dogs are not. You can run them all day and they still need to work.[/QUOTE]

[Limitless]

August 10th update:

It looks like the Aussie will be coming to live here at some point in the near future. Although he went for an evaluation with another dog trainer, the owner doesn’t think spending the money will amount to anything since his SO wants him gone. She doesn’t want to talk about it, she’s afraid of him, won’t be alone with him unless he’s crated and the one day she had to deal with him, she carried a tennis racket. I hold no ill will towards her at all. He’s bitten her and she’s afraid, and she has every right to feel that way.

I’ve started looking into kennels, and found this, which is perfect, but $$$:

http://www.horizonstructures.com/dog-kennels.asp

Do you know of anything similar, maybe not so expensive. The owner said he would pay for a kennel, but I don’t want to kill him…

Am I terrible to plan to put him in something similar to that, even in January in Massachusetts?

[Bicoastal]

Buy the pieces individually

I am only responding to the kennel question (ignoring the ethics of this mess): yes you can get a heck of a lot cheaper than $2500 :eek: for an 4x8 run! Assemble the elements yourself and you can choose exactly what is best.

For your location, you need a real dog house, not a plastic igloo or doggie playhouse. This one is recommended by hunting dog owners. This one is also mentioned.

You can buy runs/kennels and covers at Home Depot, Walmart, and frequently on Craigslist.

Best of luck

[wendy]

hope it all works out. Nice deed you are doing even trying to help the dog.
If he’s trained to an ecollar (I think you mention it above) here is a way to teach dogs to not bother cats:

http://www.loucastle.com/crittering

my experience, herding dogs are generally easier than most other breeds to train to leave cats alone- they are, after all, bred to bother other animals only as directed by their owner.

[vacation1]

Good luck!

[QUOTE=Limitless;6490982]
I’ve started looking into kennels, and found this, which is perfect, but $$$:

http://www.horizonstructures.com/dog-kennels.asp

Do you know of anything similar, maybe not so expensive. The owner said he would pay for a kennel, but I don’t want to kill him… Am I terrible to plan to put him in something similar to that, even in January in Massachusetts?[/QUOTE]

No. You know very well that in horrible weather, you’d crate him inside in a safe room. But don’t hesitate to hand the dog’s owner an honest bill for passing on his biter. Dogs get loose. Even dumb, fat, elderly dogs get loose on a regular basis, even with decent fencing and good owners. This smart, agile, prime-of-life collie mix has an excellent chance of getting loose at least once, and once is too often with a dog who has a history of biting. That kennel looked pretty solid to me, and you absolutely need something better than the average kennel to keep this dog in. The dog’s owner is extremely lucky to have someone willing to take in his dog - he should not balk at paying for an appropriate kennel.

[cheval_convert]

I have an aussie that I adopted from rescue. He has a very strong herding instinct that can easily switch to prey drive. He also comes from a breeder who is known to produce aggressive dogs. (I didn’t know that last part until his problems emerged.) I had owned 2 aussies prior to this one and thought I knew what I was getting into. I was wrong.

He had no “off” switch either. He nipped a couple of people. (My fault - I should have had better control and not let him be in a situation where this could happen.) Fortunately I have very forgiving neighbors. (In fact, one of the children that he nipped spent an afternoon throwing the frisbee to my dog before his family moved from the neighborhood.)

Anyway, to say this has been a learning experience would be an understatement. I have worked with 4 different trainers and finally had to go to an e collar, which finally gave me control. I also took him to a vet who is a behaviorist because I was at my wits’ end and I didn’t think I could get this dog to a point where I could trust him. I thought the dog had no bite inhibition but the vet assured me that actually he did. He said that if the dog had really meant to cause damage he would have and that what I described did not really meet the legal definition of a bite or if it did , it was a level one bite. This gave me some confidence. Then he suggested that I feed him a food with lower protein. We swithched him to a lower protein food and it did seem to take the edge off of him. (He still has plenty of energy though.)

He is now 7 years old. He is the most disciplined and the most spoiled dog I have ever owned. He needed both ends of the spectrum, which is something no trainer could tell me. He is exercised regularly. I try to run him (off leash no less) for half an hour a day and we play a lot of frisbee. We also play fetch most of the evening while watching tv. We work on obedience every day, if only for a few minutes. He has become a great dog but he will always have to be managed. He is even good with my grandchildren but I never leave him alone with them.

I guess I’m telling you this because it is possible to turn this type of dog around. It takes a lot of patience, work, creativity and some disappointment along the way but if he is just a sharp aussie you may be able to save him from himself. Pm me if you ever want encouragement or just to vent, I more than understand.