Australian Shepherd Help

A friend has an Australian Shepherd mix. He’s very, very, very smart. And displays much of the temperament and drive of the breed, despite whatever he’s mixed with. But…he lives in a city with most of his yard taken up by a pool and not nearly enough exercise. He also was never well socialized with people, and therefore has bitten several house guests as well as the owners SO. He’s had a lot of obedience training, and can sit, stay, heel, place, etc. very sharply and correctly. But it’s still clearly not enough mental exercise or physical exercise. He just recently bit SO again, and now she is afraid of him, and doesn’t think she can get past it.

My husband would really like to take the dog. The dog gets along with my husband and I, we’re probably his only friends, as well as our dog. We also live in the country and he’d have a better quality of life with us. The issue I have is my 2 indoor, elderly cats, whom I adore. They raised my puppy and taught him his place in house, but I just don’t trust the Aussie to ever be around them, especially with his high drive. Is it too late to socialize this dog with people and cats?

How old is this dog?

Socialization can happen at any point in a dogs life, but it is optimal when the dog is a puppy.

Personally I would not take the dog due to liability.

he has already bitten people. If he has little bite inhibition for people, he will probably have less around elderly critters. Since I am responsible for the pets and family in my home, I do not bring in dogs that have a bite history.

If you decide to take him, make sure he is crate trained and start doing either Levels training with him (google Sue Ailsby Training Levels) and/or relaxation protocol.

My guess is that it is not lack of excercise that is the real issue, but probably a combination of innate temperament (shy/sharp) and lack of apropriate training.

Do a trial and see how he gets along with the cats. I don’t think there is anyway to know how the dog will react until after it is settled into it’s routine of increased exercise.

Also, keep in mind, that the Aussie does have more of a biting instinct than other dogs because they use force when moving cattle. This involves nipping. I don’t trust my Aussie not to bite, although she never has. She has very strong herd instincts. What’s hers is hers. That includes me. I live by myself quite aways off the road and want her to keep that instinct to protect what’s hers. That said, I make it very clear to everyone that comes in contact with her that she doesn’t do well if approached. If you ignore her, she will come and plop at your feet in 2-3 minutes. If you get on your knees and call her, it unnerves her. Once she knows you are friend, not foe, everything’s fine. But she will only accept you as friend on her terms.

Aussie’s are different dogs. And it’s a dog that doesn’t work for everyone. I wish you and the dog luck!

One quick note- Australian Shepherds are used to herd sheep, and their bite tendencies lean more towards Border Collies. Australian Cattle Dogs were developed for cows, and do have a higher tendency to bite while working.

With that said, try it and see. Have any of the bites been serious, or nips from fear/ misreading the dogs body language? I have two cattle dogs, both of which are high drive when herding and one of which fear bites. Ironically the fear biter is the one who thinks all cats are babies to be protected.

Breed description for aussies includes the warning that some of them can be or become aggressive, more than other breeds.

Don’t know why your dog has bitten, but being an aussie, you can’t rule temperament and, while that can be managed, it may not be changed easily.

As mentioned, a dog that has already several bites in it’s record is a serious liability, no matter why they happened, if it happens again.

Do you really want another dog and one with problems now?
If so, maybe you ought to try, if you can keep your cats safe.

You won’t know what you have there unless you try him.
Once he is in your house, if it doesn’t work out, what will you do then?
Do have a plan B in place, just in case.

I’m actually curious, given your location, where the dog came from originally. There is a very prolific breeder in our state who has produced many, many dogs with serious aggression issues, often ones that direct back to the owner/s. My friend got one into her rescue, and kept him for herself as she was worried about placing him. 7 or 8 months later, and he’d gone after her husband twice. There is actually a group at a university that contacted her looking for his DNA, as they were looking for a genetic link to the Rage syndrome, and suspected this line of dogs had it. If they know where the dog came from, and it was Vermont, I’d be cautious.

This dog is 5 years old now, and I’m afraid for his future, but I’m just not sure we can help. I don’t know what plan B will be if we are unable to manage him other than euthanasia. Although he was crate trained, in his current home he is free in 2 rooms of the house where his crate is located, and not crated per say. He will sleep in it. I’ve told my husband that as much as I adore this dog, I don’t trust him crated, in the house behind a closed door, in the same house as the cats. He’s smart and determined enough to get out if he wanted. My husband brings our current dog to work with him every day, and this would not be an option for the Aussie. We would have to build an outdoor kennel for him for during the day.

He has an issues daily with the mail carrier/UPS/Fedex, and apparently gets worked up to the point he’s destroyed some custom plantation shutters. He’s obviously guarding. I’m not very clear about his breeding. Another friends daughter adopted a female (Aussie I think) and did not know she was pregnant. This dog is a result of of that litter, and father is uncertain. I believe my husband’s other friend kept 2 other puppies, and those 2 puppies live on Prozac. I don’t know what state the mother came from, but there are clearly some genetic issues.

He spent Sunday afternoon with us, and let me tell you, this dog has no off switch. He is constantly alert, looking for the next command, paying attention to everything, standing, circling, waiting. Whereas our dog will play for a while and then plop down for a nice nap, the Aussie has to be told “down” to get him to chill out for a while.

But…he lives in a city with most of his yard taken up by a pool and not nearly enough exercise

Oh no. Poor dog. These dogs need a lot of exercise so that could have a lot to do with this. I often wonder how many of these high drive working dogs get euthanized because they just don’t have enough exercize and so go a bit nutz.

I have a puppy here that would likely be in that category if he did not live on a farm where he gets to run hard and play several hours a day.,

My family has had several aussies over the years. Only one was ‘sharp’ and she did not come from a reputable breeder but she was highly intelligent and trainable (as this dog seems to be) and with patience turned out to be a fantastic and much adored constant companion for elderly relative who lived alone in the country and gave dog plenty of exercise every day.

This dog is very smart and obviously trainable. I hope the right home can be found as obviously not a good fit for you.

I don’t see why euthanization is the only other option however though I notice people are quick to recommend it on these forums. The 'sharp" dog we had bit her owner twice-re food- warning growl first- and used to go a bit wild with barking if anyone came to the door initially but this was all COMPLETELY resolved with training . She went on to be a great dog for the next 13 years.

I’m just telling this story to ilustrate that if the dog is smart and trainable, it is certainly possible to turn this around. Not for the OP-but someone else .

He spent Sunday afternoon with us, and let me tell you, this dog has no off switch. He is constantly alert, looking for the next command, paying attention to everything, standing, circling, waiting. Whereas our dog will play for a while and then plop down for a nice nap, the Aussie has to be told “down” to get him to chill out for a while.

This is not unusual for a highly driven working breed and there are people (like me)who enjoy and understand this type of dog so would also know that part if this is adjustment to new surroundings. They aren’t couch potatoes but will relax when fully exercised and feel comfortable in their surroundings.

Editing to add there are several aussie rescue groups which could assist in finding a place for this dog with people who understand and appreciate the breed.

Crockpot – in my heart of hearts, I agree with you. In fact, I have 2 dogs in my home, one of which I call my “liability dog.” LD bit two shelter workers on intake (she was brought in on a catchpole and throwing herself around like a wild animal) and was was labeled unadoptable, but as the shelter volunteer behaviorist I took her home as a special case. She wiggled her terrified little self into my husband’s and my hearts and we formally adopted her.

My intent was to socialize her, and it seemed to be going reasonably well. I used a dogsitter from my dog training club who understood my “protocol” with her and things were going quite well until we called the sitter again after a fairly lengthy hiatus between “sits.” When I was about an hour away from home, I received a phone call from my sitter telling me that she was at the hospital after my dog had bitten her hand pretty badly. Remember, this woman is a pro, and teaches obedience at the local dog training club. I never really found out what happened. Since we have never witnessed this behavior ourselves (and we had become pretty attached) we decided not to euthanize her. However, she is now “Liability Dog” and very very carefully managed. She is crated and placed in another room when visitors come. She is kenneled when we go away (and the kennel operators are well aware of her past and have agreed not to touch her.) Things are fine, but it is tough – and nearly impossible to imagine most people would be willing to go through what we do with this dog. :frowning:

LD bit two shelter workers on intake (she was brought in on a catchpole and throwing herself around like a wild animal) and was was labeled unadoptable,

They aren’t all the same and don’t all carry the same degree of risk or liability. This does not sound like the dog in the OP and does not sound like our 'sharp ‘aussie.’ I probably would not have taken on your dog but if I did not already have two, might be interested in OP’s dog.

I wouldn’t want the liability of a dog that you know has bitten multiple people. All it takes is the dog slipping out and biting somebody. Great way to have an expensive judgement against your homeowners.

I wouldn’t take the chance with a sharp dog that has never been around cats and elderly cats. A quick grab and shake of the head by the dog and you have one less cat.

With todays litigious society, cats in the house, the intesity of this particular dog and multiple human bite history that isn’t a risk I would be willing to take. There are plenty of safe, quiet nice dogs that would be fine with your cats and don’t have a bite history that are better candidates for a good home.

I sometimes wonder how happy a dog like that really is. If they are constantly hyper-alert and are defensive enought to have bitten multiple times that does not sound like a happy well adjusted dog to me. I am not always convinced that even if you are able to provide loads more exercise for this dog that you will be able to change this 5 year old dogs underlying personality.
It sounds like his owners have tried by doing the obedience but he has continued to escalate and is now going after the owner not just strangers.
Once again not a risk I would be willing to take.

Don’t get me wrong. I have a dog that bit me a few years ago. It was hard enough to puncture my palm and go get a tetanus shot. I still have her. She is 15 years old at this point.

DH and I manage her carefully, we know what her trigger is and she has never shown interest in the cats.

She recently has started to threaten to bite me if I take her collar to send her outside to pee or put her in her room. She used to do this regularly when we first got her 8 years ago as a stray. However her teeth are so worn down there is no real danger of getting hurt anymore. She had had cancer since Sept so we just roll with it. I think she is getting to be old lady grumpy.

I am generally not quick to jump on the euthanize bandwagon. However for some dogs that is the safest option.

:confused: I don’t see where anyone is suggesting the OP take the dog. I agree that based on what she has posted that would be a big mistake.
:no:

Good aussies are really nice dogs in the right hands; however, there seem to be a lot of really bad aussie breeders out there producing unstable aussies. Plus of course the breed, like most working dog breeds, isn’t right for most and makes a terrible “just pet”. Hanging out in the backyard and doing nothing but a bit of basic obedience will turn any aussie into a neurotic fruitcake.

Your best bet is to find someone who is very knowledgeable about the breed- contact aussie rescues or something- and have that person evaluate the dog in person. If they think the dog just needs a better home, one that will provide for the dog’s needs, take it. Otherwise, the dog is probably better off PTS.

If it weren’t for the cats you could try it. However, if it goes wrong, the cats will pay too high a price.

um. no. I have a high drive ACD, and she doesn’t get tons of physical exercise. What she does get is mental exercise. Many high drive working dogs are euthed because too many people make too many excuses (he’s X breed, or he’s protective or whatever) for bad behavior and the dog finally bites someone. As dog owners, we have a general responsibility to the public and as a dog trainer, I am held to a higher standard, so if I recommend euthing a dog, it’s because I think the dog is a serious liability. I did not recommend euthing this dog, by the way.

This dog is very smart and obviously trainable. I hope the right home can be found as obviously not a good fit for you.

many gray area dogs are very trainable. Being very trainable does not equal safe to be around strangers or in public.

True personal example. Black dog was taken as foster by training partner. We did not know her history except she had been owned by a person with small children and tied out a lot. They were moving and could not take the dog. Training Partner, is experienced and had sporting breed dogs at the time (ie: high drive). Black Dog was good for about 2 weeks and then began to show her real personality. She cornered and then started a fight with one in-house bitch, the male dog intervened. She backed off when he stepped between them. She was incredibly trainable, absorbed the training quickly and did not forget what she was taught. Training Partner got her to the point she was pretty good at all commands she had been taught, though she had occasional outbursts with the in-house bitch and once started a fight with my Corgi bitch. We decided that she needed to be placed in an only dog home. After a great deal of searching we found a home that understood and enjoyed training, who put in an expensive underground fence, conditioned the dog properly to the fence and thought we had a home.

Until the Black Dog blew through the fence to attack a toy dog walking down the street.

I checked when I picked the dog up that afternoon and the fence was working correctly. It was simply worth it to her to take the zap to get to the dog on the street.

She came to my house after that and I had her for about 4 months where she became accustomed to my pack. We placed her again, that lasted 2 days (was on a working ranch). Then she came back again. Kept her for another 2 months, placed her again and that lasted about 2 months. We tried a rescue group who would not take her and finally Training Partner decided she was too invested in picking fights with dogs to place so she was euthed.

So where do you place a dog like this safely? We tried a residential home, a home on a working establishment, a farm outside the city and a rescue group? The first home was very willing to invest in training and lessons. There was plenty of room to run at the working places.

And this dog had not bitten PEOPLE.

Good for you for finding those rare homes where anxious dogs don’t come in contact with other dogs or people or kids or whatever their trigger point is, but many don’t have that luxury.

I did not recommend euthing this dog, by the way.

Who said you did?

The OP’s husband wants to take the dog.

[QUOTE=wendy;6442048]
Good aussies are really nice dogs in the right hands; however, there seem to be a lot of really bad aussie breeders out there producing unstable aussies. [/QUOTE]

I, too, am finding both very shy/sharp Aussies and a tremendous number of dogs with seizure disorders among the breed/crosses.

My last client had a young dog that was shy and VERY smart, but quick to threaten. She was an Aussie X

[QUOTE=Crockpot;6442074]
Who said you did?[/QUOTE]

when you make general statements like "however though I notice people are quick to recommend it on these forums. "

I include myself in that sweep of the brush.

The OP’s husband wants to take the dog.


Yes. I was referring to replies here.I agree with everyone else, this would not be a good match for the dog. As mentioned, an aussie rescue organization may be able to assist the owner in finding a match, if possible.

when you make general statements like "however though I notice people are quick to recommend it on these forums. "

I include myself in that sweep of the brush

Really? Why? I commented on something I have noticed, generally speaking. Obviously it does not apply to everyone.

Although I have not witnessed any of the bites, I’m told that there was no warning (growling, etc.) with any of them. The first bite to the owner’s SO was bad. The recent bite to owner’s SO occurred when she came downstairs to see that the dog had thrown up. She moved to let dog outside so she could clean up, and he went after her upper leg in quick succession 3 times. She had a scrape from a tooth, but no puncture. Now I’m going to assume that she was aggravated and maybe moved quickly or something to that effect, but I that is an assumption on my part. Another bite was when he went after SO’s sister, who was sitting on a stool, and who had actually dog/house sat for him previously with no issues.

I’m wondering if an Aussie rescue would take him with a bite history. It sounds great, like a problem solved, but once he’s gone to a new home, and if something happens and they choose to euthanize the dog, isn’t it the same thing anyway? Once he out of the owner’s hands, he has no control over the dog’s future.

I found a herding dog trainer a couple towns over from where they live, and I’m also wondering if this will prove to be a good outlet for him. Can he be trained at 5 to herd, or is it too late?

I do adore him, and for all I know, a life with us, another dog, with lots of exercise as well as serious management could be just what he needs and he could be a completely different dog. But at the same time, I wonder if even with those changes, we could end up having the same issues the current owner has.