Australian stock saddle, English

Just throwing it out there.

I ride in a flat Wintec because it’s what I can afford and works. The new thing out there is giant knee blocks and such, so I was looking at saddles at a consignment shop and came upon an Ausssie stock saddle.
http://www.statelinetack.com/item/wintec-australian-pro-stock-saddle-cair/SLT900625/

The one I saw was $300. So, how different is this from the dressage saddles with the big blocks? This is more of a thigh block. There are no requirements on the type of saddle you can ride in, so why not this? It seems pretty close to what the “new” type dressage saddles are.

Discuss.

I find they push my lower leg forward and it’s really not easy to rise to the trot (and generally try and ride dressage in!)

A couple of pics of me on a friends young horse.

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/12039725_1022189521148564_2133797596910751711_n.jpg?oh=d4bba77f81bbea3056253237fcb72d56&oe=568833B7

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/12042801_1022189524481897_1440716513323744005_n.jpg?oh=85b34159a5c2bb95b765aaa36f71fd79&oe=56920D64

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12038159_1022189584481891_1159475158651123233_n.jpg?oh=4c63285cc724deeb25c59c2e06955fb7&oe=569EC72F&gda=1451619600_9ea8d932fa6fbc0c6cf6c8928bd26195

They are quite different in how they sit you!
The stock saddles sit you more back on your bum, with your legs more forward.

But yes, I know what you are getting at. I borrowed a dressage saddle with quite large knee blocks and a wide seat, and it felt close to riding in a stocky :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=flight;8344561]
They are quite different in how they sit you!
The stock saddles sit you more back on your bum, with your legs more forward. [/QUOTE]

This! Here’s a pic of me on a friends young horse in a stock saddle.

Depends how good quality the stock is if it is a cheap indian leather you will be in agony like myself when I ride in them for breakers. I like the bates stocks but prefer the swinging fenders. I’d go with a dressage saddle personally but thats just me.

If you’re planning to show, it’s against the rules to use a stock saddle.

DR121 Saddlery and Equipment1. An English type saddle with stirrups is compulsory for all tests and classes otherthan FEI tests. Stirrups must have closed branches. An English type saddle may beconstructed with or without a tree but cannot have a horn, swell, gallerie, or opengullet. Australian, Baroque, Endurance, McClellan, Spanish, Stock, or Western saddlesare not permitted nor are modified versions of these saddles (exception: competitorswith a current approved Federation Dispensation Certificate). A Dressage saddlewhich must be close to the horse and have long, near-vertical flaps and stirrups is DRDRESSAGEDIVISION© USEF 2015 35compulsory for FEI tests…

The saddle in the OPs post isn’t obviously an Australian saddle though. I would guess most stewards/judges would allow it. That said though, OP, I think you would find that the stirrup bar is set further ahead of the lowest part of the seat than in a dressage saddle.

Oh, the swells (Poleys? spelling?) make it obviously a stock saddle, though!

They are higher up than you’d ever see on a dressage saddle and are placed similar to the swells on an old bear trap type Western saddle. Rides much like one, too. Hard to get out of if you WANT to bail off! And beats you up pretty bad when your horse starts rockin’ and rollin’.

Tough to post in, too!

True. I hadn’t thought of posting. But, considering how gigantic some of the “knee rolls” are on some of the newer dressage saddles, this doesn’t seem like much. What is the difference between the swells (never heard of that term) and gigantic knee rolls? It would be hard to get out of some of them.

This one has a massive block: http://www.doversaddlery.com/wolfgang-solo-dressage-saddle/p/X1-15573/
http://www.doversaddlery.com/steffen's-advantage-single-flap-dressage-saddle/p/X1-15243/
http://www.doversaddlery.com/bates-innova-mono%2B-drss-sddle/p/X1-15969/

Having done some reining, the seat you need for dressage is very similar, so why would the saddles be different? I don’t know about the bars and where it puts your leg, though. I’ve never really seen anyone ride in them. I’m looking for videos, but can’t really find anything that show clearly where it would put your leg.

You’ll probably have to sit in one to get the feeling. Definitely back on your bum with legs out in front. And the ‘ears’ are up high on your thigh to hold you in. Not on your lower thigh/knee, to keep your thigh long and down like dressage saddles.

I could not post in one when I had the chance to try one out.

So basically, BTDT, you’re critical of the big thigh rolls on some modern dressage saddles.

If you don’t need or want them, don’t buy that style.

“Swells” are the “shoulders” on the pommel of some older deep seated Western saddles. You could lock your thighs under that big swell, brace against the high back and ride out the buck. By comparison, those big block dressage saddles won’t lock you in your seat. If a dressage rider does brace against the block, they’re doing it wrong. You are sophisticated enough to know that.

If you’ve done a little reining, I’m surprised you hadn’t heard the term “swells”!

Why the snark, ThreeFigs? Um, no, basically I’m not critical of big knee rolls on modern dressage saddles. I actually don’t know what to think. I saw an Australian saddle and this got me thinking about the difference and what the purposes are, thus I brought it up.

Does it make us better riders or not? No clue.

I have never heard of the term “swells” and never heard anyone say they are used to brace against the buck. I have done a little reining, but I don’t live in a western world, so I don’t know if it’s a common term or not.

flight–Thanks for the observation. So, the swells are to hold a person in the saddle? Frankly, that seems scary to me. I would never want to be locked in. I have never heard anyone say the big knee rolls help keep your thigh long and low. I have heard people say they give them more to support. I’m not sure what the actual function is. It seems if you have big rolls, you have to have it fit very precisely, or it really puts you in the wrong place.

The swells or poleys are to hold a person in the saddle in certain circumstances. They are not there to brace against all the time. That would be exhausting and painful.

American cowboys and (I’d assume) Australian stockmen ride in rough country, through brush, up & down hills after their livestock. Sometimes (especially in the old days), the horses were not all that “broke”.

Australian Stock saddles and Western working saddles are not built for the same purpose as dressage saddles. Much rougher conditions for stockmen of either continent!

i do agree with you that the deep-seated Australian stock saddles and the old-time bear-trap style Western saddles look like heck to get out of if you WANTED to. My guess is, most cowboys wanted to stick with their horse, rather than face a long walk home on foot.

Hmm. I would have thought the swells are more for keeping you from sliding out of the saddle when doing something like a slide stop or roping or something.

Western saddles have always scared me a bit for not so secure horses. The last thing I want to be is stuck in a saddle if the horse is being bad. I want to slide off as soon as possible. That’s why I get on horses bareback for the first time–I want nothing between me and getting off in an emergency.

OK, I’m going to hijack my own thread. New thing of big knee rolls on dressage saddles. Why?

Is it because this is new understanding and technology to make us better riders?

Is it because we’re an aging population that needs that extra support?

Is it because the new big moving horses are so hard for anyone but the master rider to sit on a flat saddle, so it allows us to?

Like I said, I have a flat Wintec because I can afford it, it fits most any horse, and it doesn’t seem to cause problems. I cannot experiment with big knee rolls because I can’t afford it. I have thought about it because I am getting old and things hurt more now. My youngest horse is such a massive mover, it’s REALLY hard to stay with her movement, so I tend to back off, or hurt. (You want to win at the lower levels in a big competition, you go FORWARD.) Would a big knee roll allow me to sit her without hurting so much?

Just wondering. Seriously, no judgements. Feedback would be interesting.

[QUOTE=CHT;8344839]
The saddle in the OPs post isn’t obviously an Australian saddle though. I would guess most stewards/judges would allow it. That said though, OP, I think you would find that the stirrup bar is set further ahead of the lowest part of the seat than in a dressage saddle.[/QUOTE]

It’s pretty obvious to me that it’s a stock saddle. I never saw a dressage saddle with poleys!

To add feedback to OP’s question about big blocks on modern dressage saddles.

This is my theory. It may not be fact, but it is based on my experience:

It is to hold the rider’s leg in position because – to be blunt – dressage has become more of a technique than an art in recent years. The big blocks came along after I started riding dressage, and I only started about 10 years ago. If you look at older dressage saddles, they don’t have blocks, nor do many of them have very deep seats and high cantles.

I think it is partly a fad thing. You see BNRs riding in those blocks, and having their names put on them, so you (generic “you”) think it’s the thing to have, if you have a saddle with Steffen’s or Isabel’s name on it you will ride like Steffen or Isabel.

It’s a fad thing like big-moving WBs. There’s nothing wrong with fads, but face it, everybody is not a GP-level rider! A lot of us are lucky to get to take one or two lessons a week with a trainer who is himself schooling Second Level.

It’s like flash straps and crank cavessons. A saddle is just another piece of equipment bought to substitute for saddle time. There’s nothing wrong with it per se, but it’s a gadget.

If we had good seats and legs we wouldn’t need blocks.

Australian stock saddles do however need poleys. Those guys aren’t doing WTC in a 20x60 arena. They’re working in rough open country.

I could go on and on and on on this but I won’t.

Best dressage saddle I ever rode in was a not-ancient Passier with a flat seat and plain flaps. You could tell it was old because it was brown! :wink:

[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8346095]

flight–Thanks for the observation. So, the swells are to hold a person in the saddle? Frankly, that seems scary to me. I would never want to be locked in. I have never heard anyone say the big knee rolls help keep your thigh long and low. I have heard people say they give them more to support. I’m not sure what the actual function is. It seems if you have big rolls, you have to have it fit very precisely, or it really puts you in the wrong place.[/QUOTE]

Trust me you can still fall out of them! I did many times as a kid!
But they are meant for stock work, and bush riding etc… they help hold you in.

I quite like a knee roll on my dressage saddles, and a deeper seat. Probably because i’m a crap rider and it may help me. Each to their own, ride in whatever’s comfy.

Anonymoose–I’ve been riding dressage for almost 30 years, so I’m old, and so what is normal to me is the really flat saddles and no knee rolls or giant pommels and cantles. So, that’s what I ride in. Plus, big pommels hurt.

I don’t want to dis the knee rolls just because it’s new. I think it is an element of riders who don’t have as great of a seat because of whatever. But, I’m thinking of my own old, sore self that has a lot harder time staying with a gigantic moving horse. When i was younger I was able to sit my pretty bouncy, big moving (for the time) horse at GP. I don’t know if it would be harder for me now because I don’t bend or move as well. Are we just trying to find a way to ride these huge gaits. We never saw any of this when I started dressage. They would have been nailed in the dressage ring for toe flipping. Dunno.

flight–I’ll have to try an Aussie saddle if I have the chance. I don’t think I’ve ever ridden in one. As for the dressage saddle, dunno. For a long time I tried to find a dressage saddle with a deeper seat because I thought I could stay in it better. It took me a long time to figure out it was harder for me to stay in the saddle. But, I’m a big person (only a little fat, but big, tall, wide) so need an 18" saddle even when skinny. I found I could find a place to sit in a flat saddle whereas I bounced out in a deeper seat. I don’t know if the “right” deeper seat and knee roll would fix all of my riding problems!!

OP, you sound like you are built kind of like me. and are about the same age. I started dressage in middle age and found a friend’s small flat old Stubben with no blocks or knee rolls at all to be much more comfortable and secure-feeling for me than, say, a Wintec Isabell.

About the same time I was riding in the Isabell I also tried a Wintec Australian stock saddle. It looked comfortable in the tack shop but it was very uncomfortable for me on the horse. The deep seat and cantle made me feel pushed forward, and the poleys made it hard/impossible to post.

Maybe some dressage saddles have huge blocks because at the higher levels very little posting is done?

I was taught that the “swell” on a western saddle is the front part that “swells” up out of the seat, where an English pommel is. The swell is the base for the horn.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-JRD-Custom-Designed-All-Purpose-Dressage-Saddle-Escala-Mono-Flap-19-Seat-/281812384946?hash=item419d53bcb2

I had to bring this up again because I was surfing on ebay. How does this saddle look different than the one I put up? Why would it be legal and the other one not?

Or this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zaldi-New-Cont-Saddle-Crossover-Dressage-Trail-Chocolate-Brown-18-/201434766521?hash=item2ee6729cb9