Avoidance behavior during groundwork

[Vixenna]

Hi there!

I have a 23 year old paint who has been in the family since he was three. I inherited him around six years ago, and before that he mainly just sat in the pasture with other horses.
He does everything I ask and is fine under saddle, and if I’m in the pasture he enjoys getting pets and will yawn and relax as I’m doing so.
However my issue is the fact that he doesn’t care to connect with me, no matter what I do or try with him. He does everything I ask, with no enthusiasm, ever.
During groundwork he completely avoids looking at me. I will be lunging him or working on moving shoulders/haunches etc. and he has his head and shoulder looking out and away from me, and will find any and every little thing to pay attention to, other than me. He goes out of his way to keep from connecting with me.
He does this while riding as well, no matter who is riding him. He is never present or mentally with you.
I’ve tried everything from just spending time with him to rigorously working him and constantly switching up what we are doing. The more I ask of him or try to mentally stimulate him, the more he tries to disconnect from his surroundings.
It’s extremely frustrating, and I don’t think I’ll ever be able to achieve any kind of connection with him while working, but I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions?

[GraceLikeRain]

@Vixenna

The more I ask of him or try to mentally stimulate him, the more he tries to disconnect from his surroundings.

Subscribe to 90 days of warwick schiller and start at the very beginning. You have to go sloooooow with these types if you really want them to authentically connect.

[VodkaRedbullx2]

Does he have any moonblindness? Is it sunny where you work him? Does he have a white face?

Food.

[Demerara_Stables]

IME these types have been not listened to for a long time. You said he’s been “in the family,” do you know who was his main caretaker or rider? Did that person treat him as just another animal on the farm or did they spend time and try to have a connection with him? 17 is a long time to go with someone not spending that important time with him, so it’ll be hard to build the connection. Have you thought about an animal communicator?

[fivestrideline]

@Vixenna

The more I ask of him or try to mentally stimulate him, the more he tries to disconnect from his surroundings.

You may be pushing him too hard. Sounds like he may have been a “using” horse or a pasture puff for almost 2 decades - you’re asking him to do something completely foreign. Learned helplessness is also a key tenant of a lot of “groundwork” schemes like Clinton Anderson and Parelli, so he may have been taught to shut down since the pressure will never go away.

Types like these may respond really well to clicker training vs traditional groundwork. Give him a reason to care about the human on the ground vs shut down. The turning away and distraction is a sign he’s uncomfortable and the reward (whatever you’re offering him) isn’t enough.

Also, some horses really like a job that makes sense to them. Going in circles and moving their body around without a “point” stresses them out. These horses understand doing those things to move cattle or go down the trail or jump a course, but they don’t have an innate desire to play games. That’s another horse that may love food rewards!

Back wayyyyy off, find a reward he values, and give him time. Some of the most shut down horses I’ve known had great ground manners and were very good under saddle, but they only opened up to “their” person who they knew was listening. And had treats .

[Vixenna]

Thank you, I will look into that!!!

[Vixenna]

No moon blindness or eye problems. He’s shown this behavior consistently over six years no matter what time of day or where we are.
I have tried food… He just does what what I ask, gets the food, and goes back to ignoring me. But I will keep working with him on it and see what happens.

[Vixenna]

He was my grandpa’s horse, and he absolutely was treated as just another farm animal to just work and road ride after while and again. No one ever cared to bond with him.
The only person who ever did do anything of the sort was my aunt many years ago. She did some barrels and cows with him, and from what I’ve heard, he was good at barrels and liked cows.
I’ve never thought about an animal communicator, because I can honestly only imagine they work off the animal’s body language. I’ve heard a lot of good things about them, but it doesn’t quite help my skepticism. I could at least see if there are any in the area though, because what do I know. Maybe it would help.

[findeight]

Thinking lots of personally delivered food for this old man. He’s been treated like a cow for decades, it’s what life has taught him. Getting him to associate you with food might help him warm up to you.

Do you keep him at home? Can you deliver his meals daily? Is he stalled, alone in a corral/pen or in a pasture herd? You must become his goddess of food.

Treats every time you see him might be a key as well. Not a big fan of hand treating, but in this case, IMO it’s indicated. To start with. Goal being to eventually cut back on the by hand treating put them in his feed bucket so he does not start nipping or try to crawl into your pockets.

Pretty good chance of getting him to warm up this way, worked for a couple of mine, seen it work for others.

[Vixenna]

You’re probably right, and I know he doesn’t like lunging, so I try not to do much of it. I never lunge him more than five minutes at a time, and not often.
I should try more with clicker training. Last time he was scared of the clicker (I know I can use vocal cues though- I should try that instead) and even with the treat, he would still be far more interested in anything other than me… I got discouraged pretty quickly because it was also my first time trying clicker training, and should have stuck with it longer.

He was always a trail/road horse, and he’s super bored and in his head when I ride him in that way. I know at one point in his life he did barrels and was good at it, and he liked working cows.
I don’t know where to find cows lol, but maybe at some point we could try barrels.

[Vixenna]

I feed him his grain every day, and I take him out of the pasture and into our fenced off backyard for greener grass often. He looks forward to that and sometimes pets, but shuts down if it’s anything else.
I’ve been doing treats every time I see him, and he no longer runs from me, but I haven’t incorporated it in training as much as I probably should because he has been getting mouthy. I’m sure I can work on treat receiving behaviors to help with that…

[RJC]

Any chance he’s uncomfortable somewhere? When my boy was sore recently he was really distractible and shut down even with treats presented. Now that he feels better, he focuses on me so hard that I’m having to go back and work on personal space and not gluing his face to me.

[fivestrideline]

@Vixenna

I don’t know where to find cows lol, but maybe at some point we could try barrels.

Barrels, obstacles, heck even poles and cones to ride around.

As far as building a relationship, I find it develops pretty organically if you bring them up regularly and groom, feed, take them on hand grazes, do simple and easy exercises for 20 minutes a day. Clicker training takes some practice to get right, and if you haven’t honed those timing skills it’ll take some work! Heck, even a peppermint wrapper crinkle can make pony friends VERY fast.

Anyway, he’s likely an internalizer naturally and has had his entire life to reinforce that. He may never be a sweet, snuggly, super engaged horse - but you can find what makes him tick and learn when to call it a day!

[fivestrideline]

@RJC

Any chance he’s uncomfortable somewhere? When my boy was sore recently he was really distractible and shut down even with treats presented. Now that he feels better, he focuses on me so hard that I’m having to go back and work on personal space and not gluing his face to me.

This is a very good point, as well. Even just regular arthritis can make them cranky and uninterested in any sort of work.

[findeight]

Sounds like a good start but it’s just that, a start. He’s got decades of experience being treated as a farm animal. He is making slow progress and thats a victory.

Does he really need to lunge? If he does not like it and does not need it, why? There are other things that need to be worked on first, maybe later. Not like he’s going to buck you off and small circles on old legs may make him uncomfortable and he may be right thinking its pointless.

Have you looked into obstacle work? There are people on here who do that and can guide you, keep him mentally engaged and give you a plan.

One other thing…do you know what year he was foaled? When my late mare was 28, her teeth said she was around 20. Seniors don’t need to be coddled but you need to be aware they have been who they are for many years and change can be difficult. Take your time and baby steps.

[Demerara_Stables]

I’ve worked with one exclusively over the phone. Her name is Joanna, and she’s been a huge help with numerous horses: https://www.thewildthread.com/.

[Vixenna]

Luckily it’s not that!
I have been having him seen by his veterinarian who does chiropractic and a bodyworker, and his saddle fits him well.

[Vixenna]

He is a very forward horse and some days he requires it to focus on what I am asking of him. He likes to try to get away from me and depending on the day buck. He is older, but you would never guess it by how he acts. Other days, he is perfect.
His habit of bucking and charging against the bit had been with him his whole life, and has only recently calmed down withing the last few years.
His saddle fits him well, and his teeth get checked every year. I also got him into a better bit (was ridden all his life in a tom thumb) that I know he likes better.
I indeed do have his papers and birth year.

I have never tried obstacles with him, but I would love to!

[Vixenna]

Thank you! I will look into that!

[foursocks]

If he does what you ask and seems healthy otherwise, couldn’t you perhaps just accept that he isn’t a people person? One of my horses is very matter of fact and although he knows and trusts me and is a perfect boy under saddle (and on the ground), he doesn’t want to hang out. He wants to do his job, get praised for it, get his good boy banana, and go back to being outside or in his stall with some alfalfa. Alone. My other one wants to climb into my pocket and is always up for hanging out with people or horses.

They both came from the same training program, more or less, which was a busy professional program with riders and grooms training and prepping the horses for selling. And now, they both have the same job, and are at the same barn, etc.- so in their case it’s just who they are, not how they were/are handled. Horses have different personalities, and maybe this guy’s particular combination of nature and nurture (or lack of it, in his case), is just not going to make him interested in connecting.

Having said that, my older guy knows I have treats and he knows I know exactly where he likes to be scratched when I am currying. We absolutely have a connection, but he really isn’t a people person. Doing groundwork with him has always been him doing what I want and then getting bored/mildly irritated and disengaging. Trying to make it more interesting doesn’t work, either- he doesn’t want to play games, he doesn’t want to be challenged- he’s just not into it. Since he does his job incredibly well, has always been very trainable, and communicates with me great under saddle, it’s fine! I value this boy so much- he is my heart horse, even if he doesn’t care to be, lol! Maybe this isn’t what you are looking for, but I thought I’d throw it in as a different point of view.