Avoidance/self soothing behavior during groundwork?

[Lunabear1988]

I have a 5 year old horse that always has been tough to do groundwork with. He just seems to dislike it no matter what things we do. He’s not nasty during it but I have noticed that he gets bored quickly and wants to bite on the lead rope and such. Even more subtly he will just have to stop an itch himself. Usually on his side or belly but it can change to legs. He does not show a hint of any of this during under saddle work. And he’s great when being groomed.

I’m trying to keep any sessions really short and switch up what we do. We alternate from lunging, in hand lateral work, hand walking over poles/walking outside around the property. He’s just very busy minded I think but I was curious if anybody had ever seen behavior like this? It reminds me of a dog, when they are uncomfortable with something they will stop and scratch something. My understanding is it’s them trying to change the subject.

If anybody has any tips to make it more fun and engage in for him I’m all ears!

[lenapesadie]

My horse often will chew on himself a bit before licking and chewing. He’s just processing between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. See if you give him enough time between each ask if he’ll “release” before your next ask. Warwick Schiller goes over a lot of that behavior

[Scribbler]

I would not necessarily interpret those behaviors as avoidance without other clues.

I’ve also found that introducing clicker work can really change attitudes to ground work.

[Lunabear1988]

It is something he only does during grand work so it means something. I was only thinking that as it reminded me of what dogs do when they are uncomfortable in a situation. But obviously horses aren’t dogs.

He probably would respond quite well to clicker training. Big question is how I will do with it!

[Scribbler]

@Lunabear1988

It is something he only does during grand work so it means something. I was only thinking that as it reminded me of what dogs do when they are uncomfortable in a situation. But obviously horses aren’t dogs.

He probably would respond quite well to clicker training. Big question is how I will do with it!

Clicker training has some high order benefits for horse and trainer, quite apart from what you teach. You could just teach silly pet tricks, and see these benefits. But you have to do it fairly correctly.

First it teaches the trainer to be coherent and consistent. To break tasks down into tiny chunks. To have excellent timing. All these things transfer back to regular training.

Second, clicker lets you see how your horse looks when he is thinking and totally engaged and focused on you. It also shows you how fast he can learn a behaviour, for good or bad, if he understands the cue and the action is not painful.

Finally, the horse learns to learn. He learns all your body language potentially means something, and isn’t white noise. He learns to think about what you are asking and that it’s ok to guess and offer an answer. He learns to try.

This attitude will carry over to other training. But you need to always be consistent and clear in all your cues from the moment you get out of your car in the barn parking lot.

By and large, horses are happy about ground work if they see it as clear cues, clear reward or release, and it doesn’t go on forever. They don’t like ground work that is continual push, or that is too noisy, either verbally or physically. I think horses experience too much fuss on the ground or conflicting pressure the same way we experience an annoying person talking nonstop in an anxious voice.

[Lunabear1988]

Today I did different stuff on the ground but I took more time in between. Instead of just petting him and telling him a good boy after doing something I actually stopped and let him sit for a few minutes. He was quite relaxed and only went to itch himself once.

I don’t do clicker training with my dogs exactly but I do use positive reinforcement, coupled with the word “Yes.”

Overall a really good session today just by taking a little bit of a different approach. The work I did was different though too although I don’t think that was much to do with it. He likes to have his time to sit and relax in between even just for a few seconds.

[Scribbler]

@Lunabear1988

Today I did different stuff on the ground but I took more time in between. Instead of just petting him and telling him a good boy after doing something I actually stopped and let him sit for a few minutes. He was quite relaxed and only went to itch himself once.

I don’t do clicker training with my dogs exactly but I do use positive reinforcement, coupled with the word “Yes.”

Overall a really good session today just by taking a little bit of a different approach. The work I did was different though too although I don’t think that was much to do with it. He likes to have his time to sit and relax in between even just for a few seconds.

Yes! The relax and release is the reward. Also he gets to process what he did. Rather than not being able to escape constantly nt pressure.

[lenapesadie]

That sounds positive!

Sometimes if I think my horse is a bit stuck between being responsive and being relaxed, I take a step back away from him. That tiny piece of extra space seems to help my horse in those occasions.

[Texarkana]

I have a bit of a differing opinion and think it absolutely could be avoidance.

I say this because I have a very sensitive-minded horse who hates groundwork, particularly lunging. I suspect there’s a physical component in her case as she can be a little stiff/weak in one of her stifles. Going in circles and asking her to yield might be irritating to it.

But anyway, I do kind of what you did today: chill time, keep it short, also I switch it up a lot. Lunge 2 or 3 laps, then do something else or switch directions. We never go around and around anymore nor do we repeat any movements or challenges on the ground more than a couple times in a row.

[lenapesadie]

@Texarkana

chill time, keep it short, also I switch it up a lot. Lunge 2 or 3 laps, then do something else or switch directions. We never go around and around anymore nor do we repeat any movements or challenges on the ground more than a couple times in a row.

Agree 100 with this part.

[Lunabear1988]

Honestly I don’t feel like we repeat or drill anything… usually done in 5 or 10 minutes depending. But giving him breaks sure helped. I think I nitpick too much.

[Scribbler]

@Lunabear1988

Honestly I don’t feel like we repeat or drill anything… usually done in 5 or 10 minutes depending. But giving him breaks sure helped. I think I nitpick too much.

What does nit pick mean? Absolutely this can be negative to a horse because he feels he can’t get the right answer.

[Texarkana]

@Lunabear1988

Honestly I don’t feel like we repeat or drill anything… usually done in 5 or 10 minutes depending. But giving him breaks sure helped. I think I nitpick too much.

I completely understand because I nit pick. And with my horse’s sensitive temperament, it didn’t agree with her. So I’ve had to make a conscious effort to break that habit. What I thought was preventing bad habits was really just annoying to her and making her want to avoid the task.

[Lunabear1988]

Well obviously it’s negative lol. I’m only human! I’m just reflecting.

I think he starts to fuss and I need to change the subject at times instead of “arguing” about him biting lead rope. I think it turns into a game that’s more fun than whatever I’m asking that might be difficult.

[Lunabear1988]

Exactly!! I think that’s how we are both feeling. I’m bothering him. Only on the ground though. Otherwise he’s a happy boy.

[Scribbler]

@Lunabear1988

Exactly!! I think that’s how we are both feeling. I’m bothering him. Only on the ground though. Otherwise he’s a happy boy.

Horses are often used to not being asked for much focus on the ground beyond being disciplined for not standing still or leading quietly. They need to learn that there can be interesting subtle communication and tasks on the ground. Sounds like you are figuring it out.

[Lunabear1988]

Yeah it’s a learning curve. I was told by the lady I bought him from that he was started by an old Reining trainer. She said she was told he had 90 days on him but she said she thought more like 30 days. She tried to bridge the gaps but she was a barrel racer and it was pretty clear right away that he was not going to suit that life, so he was on the back burner.

When I got him he was wary and very reactive to some things. Like if you raised your hand to pet him, he jumped side ways. It is now clear that when being started he reacted to pressure but wasn’t taught to think through what was being asked. He’s come a long way but I’ll admit he’s very different than past horses I’ve owned so it’s a learning curve for me too.

He’s very very smart. It makes it both easy and difficult lol

[Jealoushe]

Sounds like you need to find more purpose and focus on what you are trying to achieve with your ground work. Ground work is a lot like dressage, if it’s boring you are doing it wrong.

Do you have ride IQ? I cant remember if you had tried it, there are some fun ground work exercises on there with purpose and they are challenging. My horses have been enjoying them. If you aren’t a member they have a free trial.

[Lunabear1988]

I do have Ride IQ. And yes I think I need to find a way to make it have a point for him.

Although after yesterday I do think a big ticket is giving him breaks to just stand in between.

[beowulf]

I’m with Tex, this very well could be an avoidance behavior rooted in tension. I’m glad you took a step back and saw an improvement.

I’ll second the clicker training. One thing Scribbler said that is so true – clicker training teaches the horse to want to learn. They want to interact with you, because they learn doing so is rewarding. And this isn’t said enough in “clicker-training” circles, but recognizing that “thinking face” versus “frustration face” is so important – clicker training will make this so obvious even someone unfamiliar with horses will be able to read their cues and figure it out.

My horse totally changed when I clicker trained him. I don’t think he was ever abused, but he came to me after the track very shut down and just not interested in people. He was a nervous listener; he always was focused on you, but in an anxious way. Clicker training completely broke that barrier down. Now, it doesn’t matter what I’m doing around the farm - he will be as close as he can to me on the fence line, giving me that “can we interact?” look.