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Baby Green Hunter Moment VIDEO UPDATE on p 10

Hunter/Jumper
#81

[QUOTE=Mara;4658853]
I realize I’m risking getting my own head twisted off for saying so, but it seems that some posters are seeing meupatdoes’ thread and video as an opportunity for, uh, payback? She’s never been shy about posting her opinions and calling 'em as she sees 'em. Just seems like some folks who feel they’ve been stung by her in the past are licking their lips at the prospect of being able to criticize. I’m detecting a dash of venom just barely concealed within some posts that I usually don’t notice when others post their videos.

I’m not necessarily discounting anyone’s opinions. But the tone of some of the criticisms does seem a touch. . .vengeful, for lack of a better word.[/QUOTE]

I think everyone was pretty tactful overall. I mean, when you see someone walk a greenie into a ring for their first show o/f and immediately back them up, right there at the in gate, it kind of sends a signal that just maybe some constructive criticism might be beneficial about how to instill “forward” in a greenie. You just kind of assume they might not understand the importance of forward.

But he is a very cute horse!!

#82

He’s gonna be a really fancy show horse when he can keep it in the ring. ROTFL! Thanks for posting.

#83

[QUOTE=Equino;4660205]
The first time he did this, I asked for an inside bend and used my leg, he went straightened up and went on. The 2nd time by, he tried to suck back and look again, he got a firm smack behind my leg with the crop and while he did overreact for a couple strides, he never once tried to suck back and look out the door again. [/QUOTE]

My fuse is a little longer, especially on a horse that is usually quite a good citizen, so a horse would have to repeat the behavior without improvement a couple more times before I got after him, but the general premise is the same.

For my horse in my video, I felt that the improvement he made after quiet persistence was Good Enough For Today. The first time he backed out of the ring; the second time he hesitated, backed, but then DID go forward and complete the course, so for me, it was enough and I considered it a lesson learned. Another rider might make a different call.

What would get me to get the dressage whip out of the trailer?

  1. If he started to be ruder about his resistance (I thought he was being pretty polite) or trying to Act Big to get me to back down. Violent head snaking, rein ripping, or getting light in the front would have met a more decisive reaction with or without the crop.

  2. Either a ruder response, or multiple repetitions without improvement.

A repetition with improvement I consider success. I don’t consider it a repetition of the same mistake if the horse has improved, even if it’s just a little improvement. For me the fact that he did go around that turn and jump around was enough. After multiple repetitions without improvement, however, I will escalate my aids.

So I am not discounting your choice to get after him on Time Two, I just happen to make the same choice a little slower.

#84

We’ve all seen meupatdoes’ other videos, correct? The girl can ride, we all know that.

So perhaps there was some bad judgement on her part during those rounds…so what? Is there anyone here who’s never made a mistake while riding?

The horse went around. No, the backing out of the arena thing wasn’t good, but meupatdoes knows the horse and if she says escalating the situation would’ve made things worse–I believe her.

When I was younger, I was a more aggressive and brash rider, and I never hesitated to get after one with a stick–green or schooled, afraid or just being an a$$hole. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve learned the value of knowing the horse you’re on and reacting to each situation individually and appropriately.

I have an old (10) greenie who was on the track forever and is very nervous about crops. I do carry one sometimes, but try to avoid using it–he is still learning and as long as he tries, I see no reason to make him afraid unnecessarily. I ignored my own advice last summer and “smacked” him into a canter depart–it really, really upset him and it set our canter progress back by months; he became afraid of canter transitions because of my bad decision. Won’t make that mistake again.

Bottom line–meupatdoes got the horse around without making him more afraid/nervous and without wrecks, injuries or blowups. I suspect that was her goal all along–just a pleasant show experience, nothing more. Plenty of time to school forward at home.

Thanks for posting, OP! Good job.

#85

I’m pretty sure the OP didn’t ask for the horse to back up…I think he did that on his own.

OP likes a dressage whip but knows she can’t carry it in the hunter ring. In that instance, switching to a crop would’ve been a good idea…as a quick smack could’ve broke him out of his reverie. But I have a feeling the OP wasn’t expecting that behavior at all and was quite surprised by it the first time. Second trip…she shouldn’t have been surprised by it, but again I’m sure she made the decision she wanted to make on how to handle the behaviour.

Just about everyone else agrees that a crop would’ve been useful. Can’t we leave it at that? Why keep berating her? It’s her horse to make into a star or to ruin. Maybe she gave herself some more work to do by allowing the behaviour, but she is the one that has to do the work, not us.

How many of us create our own problems? I’ve seen a number of stoppers created by the rider. I myself have created a bit of a nappy horse by not getting after him when I should. You can often hear me tell my trainer as the ammie owner, it’s my privilege to ruin my horse if I want (like when I decide to try two tempi lead changes on the horse who already uses changes as an evasion…boy did I pay for that one for months :lol:).

And you know…kudos to meupatdoes for leaving the links up. How many of you would do that when faced with such an overwhelming negative response?

#86

I’m going to completely bypass the crop/forwardness issue and cut to the Really Important Stuff.

Girl, what is with your HAIR?! Is that a ponytail I see? Say it ain’t so! :smiley:

#87

[QUOTE=Sing Mia Song;4660350]
I’m going to completely bypass the crop/forwardness issue and cut to the Really Important Stuff.

Girl, what is with your HAIR?! Is that a ponytail I see? Say it ain’t so! :D[/QUOTE]

THAT is some impressive hunter hair FAIL, and from a turn-out princess too (Were we the only ones braided? Why yes we were. Leave it to me to put in over 40 braids for a schooling show and then my hair does jazz hands out the back of my helmet.)

The one thing I said to my trainer when watching that video was “OMGWTF MY HAIR, HOW COULD YOU NOT SAY ANYTHING?! SERIOUSLY!”

So between the horse and the hair there were multiple mutinies on the bounty that day.

Le sigh.
:lol::lol::lol:

#88

Sing Mia Song…

I just fell out of my chair laughing so hard…

#89

To the OP, the great/dreadful thing about posting a video or picture, is the opening of the doorway for critique. Having read some of your posts, this is something you’re most familiar with. I have just erased my long dissertation and will say I don’t always agree with Tidy Rabbit but do 100% today. You need a bat, he needs to go forward and he needs to be told that by you.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

#90

To Each their own but I do believe greenies need to be taught Forward first and formost.
My Mare is 5 And really just starting her career under saddle due to just not being ready. Even on a lunge line she knows forward is mandatory.

Undersaddle she is the same… I rarely have to ask or push for her to move forward, but I still always carry a crop or whip. And she also knows that when I say go i mean it., even if shes spooking… She MUST go by it.
This has resulted in a much less spookier horse over time…

ETA My mare is HIGHLY reactive herself… thats no excuse IMO… What I say goes. End of story. She requires a tactful ride, but I’m not about to put up with her crap either.

#91

[QUOTE=RugBug;4660319]
OP likes a dressage whip but knows she can’t carry it in the hunter ring. [/QUOTE]Generally, I am all about turnout. But personally, at a schooling show in a greenie division, I’d prefer to see a horse going forward with the use of a Dressage whip than one who sucks back to the point of stopping and reversing.

#92

True…but I’ve had a judge stop the most schooling-est of schooling shows in eventer land to boot, to have people switch out their dressage whips. I appreciated that he was sticking to rules.

#93

Generally, I’m all about letting babies figure things out on their own time. Trailer loading? I am in the camp of “practice when you have all afternoon, they will walk on eventually”. My horse has been called lady broke since I was always happy to wait 5 minutes rather than making a huge issue of it and trying to wrestle him in with a pitchfork, lunge whip, lunge line, and half the barn fussing at him. maybe that is lady broke though, analyzing things and not necessarily having to win if you get the same result with less effort by letting them think they won :wink:

However, one thing I do not tolerate is stopping and especially going backwards when they are afraid of something under saddle. When they get it in their minds that they can stop when something is scary, and then you try to correct their relatively polite manner of spooking, they can go up. I know, I had a spinner who eventually calmed down into a polite “stop because it’s scary and I don’t want to go by it” type. I considered this a success in that I could generally let him watch it and then he’d decide it was ok to walk past. However, one day we were in the parking lot at lexington and he did not want to walk past a particular trailer that had people moving around in it. After a little time, I said “ok bud time to go” and when he declined, I touched him with the spur. Up and over. Probably the most frightening vision I have seen, that giant horse body coming down on me, just before I hit the ground. I remember thinking " this might just be the one that does me in". I was mostly ok, spent the evening in the emergency room but didn’t need any kind of surgery. I could just as easily have been really really hurt.

I don’t mean this as criticism of how you choose to train your own baby, just sharing my story as some food for thought.

#94

Cute horse.

Since you didn’t ask for advice I won’t give it.

#95

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;4660285]
My fuse is a little longer, especially on a horse that is usually quite a good citizen, so a horse would have to repeat the behavior without improvement a couple more times before I got after him, but the general premise is the same.

For my horse in my video, I felt that the improvement he made after quiet persistence was Good Enough For Today. The first time he backed out of the ring; the second time he hesitated, backed, but then DID go forward and complete the course, so for me, it was enough and I considered it a lesson learned. Another rider might make a different call.

What would get me to get the dressage whip out of the trailer?

  1. If he started to be ruder about his resistance (I thought he was being pretty polite) or trying to Act Big to get me to back down. Violent head snaking, rein ripping, or getting light in the front would have met a more decisive reaction with or without the crop.

  2. Either a ruder response, or multiple repetitions without improvement.

A repetition with improvement I consider success. I don’t consider it a repetition of the same mistake if the horse has improved, even if it’s just a little improvement. For me the fact that he did go around that turn and jump around was enough. After multiple repetitions without improvement, however, I will escalate my aids.

So I am not discounting your choice to get after him on Time Two, I just happen to make the same choice a little slower.[/QUOTE]
It’s OK. We have different interpretations to what is a “rude” response from the horse. My greenie is a worrier by nature, so I have to take it very slow and not become impatient, but he is also very quiet and requires a lot of leg. He will try to get out of work at times, and I expect it, he’s still learning, so I make sure to let him know he still has to go forward at all costs. His big thing is not balking, but getting crooked. I expect him to have green moments where something is a big deal or he doesn’t want to do what I ask, but there are certain things I will get after him for and ignoring my leg is top of the list. It’s obviously worked in my favor as he’s now been to 3 shows and never stopped, balked or even thought about leaving the ring. He went to OSF where I think the indoor isn’t very green horse friendly, lots to look at in the corners, mirrors, people crowding the in-gate, but as long as he maintained a forward pace, he was focused on his job, which was to get to the next jump, not looking around.

IMO, there is a big difference in going overboard getting after the horse and just a firm reminder of his job. I don’t go overboard when he has his moments, I merely fix what he just did, like, if he sucks back to spook, he has to go forward, I don’t pay any attention to the spook. If he starts carrying on after a jump, he has to pick his head up and do a downwards transition, I don’t fret about the buck. To me, there is a big difference.

If it’s true you prefer a whip and your horse respects it, I would think he wouldn’t mind you carrying a crop just as a reminder, even if you choose not to use it.

#96

[QUOTE=TheOrangeOne;4660680]
Generally, I’m all about letting babies figure things out on their own time. Trailer loading? I am in the camp of “practice when you have all afternoon, they will walk on eventually”. My horse has been called lady broke since I was always happy to wait 5 minutes rather than making a huge issue of it and trying to wrestle him in with a pitchfork, lunge whip, lunge line, and half the barn fussing at him. maybe that is lady broke though, analyzing things and not necessarily having to win if you get the same result with less effort by letting them think they won :wink:

However, one thing I do not tolerate is stopping and especially going backwards when they are afraid of something under saddle. When they get it in their minds that they can stop when something is scary, and then you try to correct their relatively polite manner of spooking, they can go up. I know, I had a spinner who eventually calmed down into a polite “stop because it’s scary and I don’t want to go by it” type. I considered this a success in that I could generally let him watch it and then he’d decide it was ok to walk past. However, one day we were in the parking lot at lexington and he did not want to walk past a particular trailer that had people moving around in it. After a little time, I said “ok bud time to go” and when he declined, I touched him with the spur. Up and over. Probably the most frightening vision I have seen, that giant horse body coming down on me, just before I hit the ground. I remember thinking " this might just be the one that does me in". I was mostly ok, spent the evening in the emergency room but didn’t need any kind of surgery. I could just as easily have been really really hurt.

I don’t mean this as criticism of how you choose to train your own baby, just sharing my story as some food for thought.[/QUOTE]

When I first saw him start backing, I was afraid a similar situation was brewing.

#97

To the OP:
Will you ride differently at this horse’s next show? Now you have an idea of what to expect, so will you have a different plan?

I took my coming 5-year-old to his first show over fences a couple weeks ago. He was braver than yours, but still not nearly as in front of my leg as I want him to be. I was more lenient with him than I should have been, but so what? Next time I’ll know to be firmer in sending him forward and I’ll be more strict about him being straight.

Isn’t that the idea, that we should all learn from our experiences, not just the green-bean horse but also the rider of said green-bean?

#98

[QUOTE=Sing Mia Song;4660350]
I’m going to completely bypass the crop/forwardness issue and cut to the Really Important Stuff.

Girl, what is with your HAIR?! Is that a ponytail I see? Say it ain’t so! :D[/QUOTE]

ROFLMAO…well at least her air knows how to “go forward”

When going into a situation like the OP had, I always hear in my ear my dearly departed best trainer in the world’s voice “don’t start a battle unless you know you can win it”

I saw a very scared greenie who could easily have “lost” his mind in the situation. No battle would have been won there, so unless you are on that particular horse at that particular event anyting posted as critique should be just read and not commented on OP, no need to defend yourself. People tend to foget that horses are “fight or flight” creatures…and this could have been very ugly but it wasn’t. I don’t think it will be a lasting habit for this particular horse, but thats just my opinion and what do I know?

#99

Conversely, you should probably not start with the assumption that all this talk about “going forward” and “using a crop” DOES NOT mean that many of these posters are starting battles they can’t win … or that they scare an already unsure greenie more than he already is. Now that would not be a smart assumption at all.

#100

This might possibly be the most telling thread of all time on COTH. So meaty.

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