Baby Green Hunter Moment VIDEO UPDATE on p 10

[RugBug]

I’m pretty sure this horse nicely cantered his way around a crossrails course last year after only having jumped a handful of times. OP will have to refresh my memory. Having seen those videos and “knowing” the OP through her posts…I think it’s easy for me to say “cute.” OP is bright enough to recognize the issue and work on it. I would’ve ridden it differently…maybe some ways better, but I’m sure in some ways WAY worse.

BTW, I’ve got one of those horses that overreacts to the crop. I’m carrying one, because without it, he ignores my leg, but one tiny little shake of it and he shoots off. Using it means a wee little tap that I’m sure can’t even be felt through his square pad and yet he still shoots off. If I happen to move one around him while on the ground, he severly flinches. He scooted the other day when a beginner rider in the ring with us raised her crop hand in the air while following the trainer’s instruction to raise that hand (helps you drop that corresponding hip). But, I’m bound and determined to get him used to it, because while he overreacts, he also likes to suck back when he’s scared. I am going to need a reminder that he must jump even if he thinks the fence is going to eat him…even if the reminder is just a flick of my wrist without really using the crop. I actually regret not using my crop enough on my WB who also likes to suck back. I think a few well timed smacks would’ve helped instill ‘over unless you’re going to die’ mentality. His current mentality is ‘over as long as I’m not scared’ (he doesn’t stop often…just sucks back to nothing and then deer jumps)

[ExJumper]

Pro-crop contingent here. I think it is most definitely NOT cute for a horse to learn that it can back its way out of a situation it doesn’t like. I didn’t watch the second video because I found the first one so painful.

With babies it’s ALWAYS got to be FORWARD first. The way the horse crawled over the oxers and landed on the back rails was painful to watch.

And you must indeed be very tall. I never would have guessed that the horse was 16.1hh. It may be the angle of the video.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=FrenchFrytheEqHorse;4658902]
But make no qualms about it, I think every rider should learn to use a crop properly. If someone’s trainer is of the opinion that a crop is not an effective aid, I’d be worried about paying such a person to teach me to ride.[/QUOTE]

Um, I know how to smack a horse behind my leg with a short bat.

The fact that I don’t find such a limited tool as useful as a dressage whip, which can be used with a far greater degree of finesse and timing, and on far more occasions than when you just need to yell “GO!” really loud, does not mean I don’t KNOW HOW to reach back and crack a horse like a mofo were I to deem that to be effective training.

I KNOW HOW to use both, and PREFER the dressage whip. I have never said a crop or whip was cruel, just that I don’t find the crop very useful in comparison to a dressage whip.
Thus, I frequently school with a dressage whip, but leave it in the trailer for h/j shows since it isn’t exactly a h/j accoutrement.

I also KNOW HOW to use the bight of the reins as a makeshift crop, to cuff an ear, to whack one bare handed behind the leg, to growl and get big, etc etc etc, so if I do find myself wanting to get aggressive with one but weaponless, I can make do. (enjoytheride, here’s your answer. IF I had chosen to escalate, there are some ways to have done it. In schooling my ‘next step’ is often -but not always- a tap with the dressage whip, but I don’t carry it in the hunter ring. I WAS however, contrary to repeated belief on this thread, wearing spurs. Them’s some hooks too, as they are fully an inch long. Perhaps if I electrify them my “artificial aid” quotient will be deemed sufficient by some of the contributors to this thread. Sheesh.)

My CHOICE, among the various options I KNOW HOW to use, was to exercise gentleness, patience and quiet persistence with a young horse who was honestly frightened of a kid playing jungle gym in the stadium seats right off the corner (though everyone who couldn’t see the kid in the video was quick to peg him for a gate rat), and the result of my choice, in case anyone missed it, was a horse who DID end up cantering around that turn in the end.

As for comments like, “Everyone has to learn how to introduce young horses to new environments sometime,” last year I introduced this very horse to the Dixon Oval at Devon, where he marched right around the young hunter under saddle among 20 other horses past a packed grandstand like a good soldier. This was his first horse show over a course of eight schooling-size fences. RugBug is correct that he marched right around teeny x’s at a schooling show last year.

Not everyone has been obnoxious in this thread, but some are actually patting themselves on the back for how civil they’ve all been because based on those videos I really deserved a skewering but instead y’all have “MOST kindly” restricted yourselves to merely saying that if I was competent I would carry a crop at all times, I should go clinic with GM, I should reconsider my choice of trainer, and that I should find someone else who can ride the horse for me.

The horse is, meanwhile, generally a very good boy. He goes off the property to school and is a good boy, he goes on trail rides and is a good boy, he had been to a tiny show and a huge show before this one and was a good boy for those too. After that teeny schooling show in Feb '09 which RugBug remembers he did not jump until Jan '10, where he did single jumps for two or three schools before heading off the property to his first real course on Jan 15 and marching around 2’6" with no problems.

He schooled courses two or three times more and Jan 31 he found himself in the arena shown on the video, uncharacteriscally intimidated by the general atmosphere and a kid playing around in the stands. His prior history had indicated to me that he was ready to rumble, BUT he is only a good horse, not a perfect one, and on show day my little buddy was scared and needed some reassurance.
He has given me no indication in his prior history of being nappy, resistant, or willful, and while I have the ABILITY to create a rodeo and stick it out and make a big display of “riding effectively”, that is not the call I chose to make on this horse in this situation.

I know people on COTH love to speak in black and white platitudes that they can dispense down their noises at the hoi polloi, but I prefer HORSE and SITUATION DEPENDENT training. If the horse in the barn who is generally docile, is the farrier and the vet’s favorite customer, and who can be groomed by a 10yo acts up going to the paddock, I might say, “Oh, silly, are we feeling good?”
Same exact behavior from the one who is always pushing the personal space issue, that the farrier HATES, and who would be liable to kick little Suzy Q upside the head if she got too close would result in a swift backing halfway across the property punctuated by unsympathetic use of the chain.

Similar to the usually-docile-horse-occasionally-kicking-up-his-heels, this horse has, in his history with me, to some extent earned the benefit of the doubt. He is for the most part a good boy. He is easily scared by a bully-ride, though, and starts quaking at corrections from a handler or rider that other horses would shrug off. (Hmmm… could that have played a part in the call I made? Ya think?)
He is a good baby, not a perfect machine, and contrary to his usual modus operandi, he had himself a baby moment. So sue us.

But, lo and behold, after some encouragement, he did go around that turn, after all.

[Roxy_SM]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;4659177]
Um, I know how to smack a horse behind my leg with a short bat.

The fact that I don’t find such a limited tool as useful as a dressage whip, which can be used with a far greater degree of finesse and timing, and on far more occasions than when you just need to yell “GO!” really loud, does not mean I don’t KNOW HOW to reach back and crack a horse like a mofo were I to deem that to be effective training…[/QUOTE]

Many of us are suggesting you need to learn how to use a crop because you claimed that using a crop makes one abandon the ride. Anyone that does know how to use a crop would have never made that comment. In this post you re-confirm that you don’t know how to use one since you seem to think the only thing it is good for is yelling GO! If anything, the most important use it has is to tell the horse to pay attention, though it is certainly not limited to that use.

[Horseforthecourse]

To the OP,

That statement implied that “Everyone has to learn how to introduce young horses to a new environment ‘correctly’ at some point.”

Like you, I also ride the individual horse and the individual situation. Your riding could still have been improved and this situation could have been handled better regardless of the horse’s nature.

I’ve brought multiple young horses from start to finish, and I think that anyone who knows me would have killed me if I let a young horse go around like you did during those trips. One of my past trainers would have literally jerked me off the horse.

I too just introduced a young, very green, coming 5 yo TB to an indoor arena last weekend for the first time, and my indoor was even scarier because there were decorations everywhere since it was a rated show. I didn’t ride like that and my horse didn’t go around like that.

I merely offered suggestions from someone that has been there and done that many, many times. If you want to comfort a frightened horse, get in a light half seat, drive the horse forward, keep his attention to the inside of the ring, move your hands up more in front of you, scratch his neck and speak softly and confidently to him while you’re riding the course. Reassure and comfort by being confident yourself in your ride to your fences and by actively keeping his attention.

What I was suggesting wasn’t a bully ride at all, and I don’t believe that others are suggesting a bully ride either. What they are suggesting is correct training: a fine-tuned correct ride, soft and light, yet reassuring to the horse. A soft half halt with spongy fingers isn’t going to make the horse more nervous or blow up. Squeezing or bumping the horse up with the back of your calf for more forward motion isn’t going to make the horse blow up. Having a crop has nothing to do with a lot of the things that I saw that could be improved upon.

No worries. If you’ll listen and realize that there are more correct and more productive ways to do things, then you will improve with more experiences on young horses. It’s as simple as that. I usually listen to suggestions as I am always wanting to learn and improve my abilities. I’m not perfect and I could do some things better. So can everyone.

What some people don’t realize is that young horses can be going great, and then they suddenly regress and start testing you. You have to work them through it, and once they realize that they aren’t going to get out of the work, then they start obeying again. You were essentially teaching him how to get out of the work, and its going to be harder to correct these problems down the road if you let this keep on.

I also do not carry a crop at all times either. It depends on the horse and the situation. Some horses need a crop, others don’t. I don’t know if this horse needed one or not, but he needed a stronger ride. The rodeo would just have been a consequence of that if the horse blows up, but I would have made the horse go around the ring correctly regardless after the blow up. Just because a horse may blow up doesn’t keep me from trying to ride them correctly and doesn’t make me quit on them.

In other words, in no circumstance on any horse (nervous, docile, high-strung, lazy…etc.) is it okay for them to go around like that, and very small changes could have drastically improved the horse’s experience.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

OP, I’m only referring to your first post addressing the crop issue in which you actually said that using a crop behind your leg would result in you abandoning your ride. Period. No other issues about it. That post told me that you don’t know how to use a crop properly. Perhaps it was poorly worded, but it was certainly an indicator of SOMETHING.

It’s fully possible that we simply disagree about the proper schooling of a young, green hunter over a small course. In my eyes, nothing about this ring/course (particularly if he/she had already marched around several courses in more intimidating circumstances) should have resulted in the trips you posted. I, too, have had/ridden BG horses. They all have moments. I would not have chosen this one to showcase that- it was not a great display of horse or rider. Maybe it was simply a bad day.

For what it’s worth, I often use a dressage whip on my lazy horse, particularly when he isn’t responding well to my leg. It’s a super tool, and I’m glad those in dressage land invented it. BUT, if it were something I needed on a baby horse and I wasn’t willing to use a crop to achieve it, I would simply bring it into the ring at a schooling show. It wouldn’t be worth it to me to put in a round in which the horse stopped at both the in gate and a jump on different occasions, regardless of someone playing in the stands.

I’m only responding to what I saw, and only in a tone that I’ve seen you consider appropriate on this board. You took it upon yourself when you decided to criticize and deny the effectiveness of one of the most useful aids on a green horse, much less when you made the comment about GM- which, again, sounded like a rider issue. No personal vendetta, no negative feelings.

[imjustjoking22]

Hahahahahaha that SO reminds me of my guy at our first show! He just loped around the whole thing… he probably would have been less out of place in a western pleasure show :lol: Your horse is a very cute guy and seems quite fancy- I’m sure he’ll be awesome after a bit more growing up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hWh9cyuKqY

[enjoytheride]

Some of the other situations you list do involve scary new situations but they involve him being in a group, thus safety in numbers.

So in what situation would you not give him the “benefit of the doubt” and drive him forward using all aids necessary? In other words, how will you and he know the difference between “I’m outta here” and “you need to listen to me now”? You believe that horses should be given an option? Do you think this adds vices in the future?

He doesn’t seem to be a nasty horse, he seems to be nervous about his situation and you look the same actually. Nobody is suggesting that you beat him senseless, but why wouldn’t a strong leg and if he ignored it a backing with a crop to send him somewhat crookedly forward past the scary part be appropriate?

Having lots of experience riding a hot and explosive horse badly I have had to learn where my riding lacks and needs to be improved to give a difficult horse a better and more firm ride. I also know how difficult it is to unlearn a horse once it has learned bad habits.

[mvp]

So I reread the OP and watched the videos to see what the OP seemed to want in posting in the first place.

You guys, she didn’t ask for a riding/training lesson.

But meupatdoes, you have been around COTH long enough, helped smash up a train or two yourself. What did you think would happen?

Be unhappy when it happens to you, but don’t be surprised and bother to defend yourself. That misses the point, which was that you didn’t ask for armchair horse training advice.

FWIW, I don’t think this horse will spend a career backing out of rings as a result of what the OP did or didn’t do. Take it for what it was-- a funny, polite, baby freak out. He’s cute, honest, safe-looking citizen. I don’t think the rest of y’all need to start nipping his training problems in the bud.

[HeyJealousy]

[QUOTE=mvp;4659330]
So I reread the OP and watched the videos to see what the OP seemed to want in posting in the first place.

You guys, she didn’t ask for a riding/training lesson.

But meupatdoes, you have been around COTH long enough, helped smash up a train or two yourself. What did you think would happen?

Be unhappy when it happens to you, but don’t be surprised and bother to defend yourself. That misses the point, which was that you didn’t ask for armchair horse training advice.

FWIW, I don’t think this horse will spend a career backing out of rings as a result of what the OP did or didn’t do. Take it for what it was-- a funny, polite, baby freak out. He’s cute, honest, safe-looking citizen. I don’t think the rest of y’all need to start nipping his training problems in the bud.[/QUOTE]

Thank you.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=FrenchFrytheEqHorse;4659262]

I’m only responding to what I saw, and only in a tone that I’ve seen you consider appropriate on this board.[/QUOTE]

You keep saying this, but I think you will be hard pressed to ACTUALLY find a post in which I tell someone they obviously don’t know how to (x), or that they should find someone else to ride their horse for them, or that their horse should be better trained by now, or if they were competent they would do (y) under ANY circumstances…much less to do so spontaeneously to an OP that DID NOT ASK for opinion, advice or critique.

I have been known to defend the occasional OP so treated, and I will give an opinion on training techniques or whether a trainer seems worth their salt and so forth under an OP that asks for them, but I find weighing in with criticism on posts that don’t ask for them unsportsmanlike and do not remember participating in such behavior.

It is of course possible that I remember my own behavior excessively favorably, but since you are repeatedly asserting that this behavior from me is both plentiful and memorable, I am sure you will have no trouble finding one of these memorable examples, in which I extensively critique an OP unbidden, to actually support your repeated assertions.

[meupatdoes]

mvp, as usual, you are right.

Point taken.

[DMK]

@RugBug;4659095

BTW, I’ve got one of those horses that overreacts to the crop … But, I’m bound and determined to get him used to it, because while he overreacts, he also likes to suck back when he’s scared. I am going to need a reminder that he must jump even if he thinks the fence is going to eat him…even if the reminder is just a flick of my wrist without really using the crop.

Yeah, the horse in my profile pic is deathly afraid of crops, whips and so on, but I damn sure got him used to a crop because I sometimes you do need the extra help. And he’s about the last horse I would smack with said crop because you can expect a worried frazzled horse for the rest of the ride if you smack him, so you better save the smack for Supreme Asshole Moments, not just those needing some reminders about forward. But just a wee waggle of that crop at his shoulder and it’s like I have Instant Bravery 'n Go Button. He’s got it down pat, if he’s feeling a bit unsure and mom shakes that crop, that means it’s safe to keep going and btw, mom also has no sense of humor about some things.

It’s a tough thing to create a quality forward in a greenie, if it was easy a lot more people would be good at riding them and a good horse would probably be a lot less expensive. I know when I am bringing one along, I always try to remember that I may not be suited to do all the job and there might be a place where its better I hand off the greenie to someone who can give them a better ride, that can be tough on your ego, but it’s easy on the horse, for sure.

[mvp]

But I can’t resist some arm chair horse training

No one has considered another element, except for Matpeudoes in an indirect way.

There are two potential problems with the crop solution. Whether the rider must make a “big move” to use it, or baby-face makes a big move in response, this horse and rider pair might create a larger problem.

See, meupatdoes is very tall, and decent-sized baby is narrow. The problem, and probably one reason the OP is giving him a super tactful ride, is that it would be really, really easy to get out of balance. That’s a great way to go from a thinking but scared baby to a holy-crap moment of brain fry. Above all, horses really don’t like to fall over. So no matter whose fault that might be, it adds to the mess.

I’m a shorty so this isn’t a problem I usually need to keep in mind. But put me on a 14 hand greenie, and I can feel such a “narrowing margin of error” compared to your average 16-hander that I tend to get very still and conservative in what I do.

[tidy_rabbit]

I guess it just depends on what your definition of success is.

If your goal is to just stay on and not have the horse fall on the ground or throw itself down, than success was achieved. However, that’s a pretty hard thing to do to a horse if it’s actually cantering forward.

If your goal is to properly bring along a young horse who is confident and forward and focused in any environment than this horse and rider have a large margin for improvement.

I asked a simple question… I asked “where is your crop?”

To which the OP gave a ridiculous answer. If she had said “I use a crop free training methodology.”

I would have had a smart answer to that… like “Seems to be working for you. But, if that’s your methodology, hope it works out for you.”

But she didn’t. She got snotty and said that she’s not “slick” enough to use a crop. I’ve seen a 6 year old on a pony, reach back and give the pony a smack when they felt it suck back on the way to a fence. A six year old. Findeight knows the little rider I speak of. It’s not a complicated technical move that can’t be controlled by and experienced adult rider.

[hntrjmprpro45]

I have to disagree about the balance issue. While it is possible she could get out of balance, at 5 years old the horse should have enough training to know how to balance a rider even in a sticky situation. Its much better to get the horse going forward than let it drag behind the leg even if going forward means a bit of an explosive moment.

[mvp]

How I learned this… the hard way

So a friend asks me to long line her short and young QH mare. I’m not a fan of her horse’s mind-- bitchy but also a coward.

At a walk, she gets tangled in the lines and runs backward, rolling over. No problem, it all happened very slowly, no one is hurt, so we try again and she gets it.

Months later, the friend asks me to ride her on the beach. For many reasons, I’m not into it, but I comply. This mare has seen the ocean before, but not with me, the flipper-overer.

We’re walking at the water’s edge in 4 inches of water. When two waves with their little borders of foam converge around her front feet, she again goes straight up.

Perhaps she thinks I taught her to do this. She falls over-- a scary first for me-- and I accuse her of doing bad math. When you stand up, high ho silver-style, you need to factor the rider’s weight into your equation, ya dumb-a$$.

With a larger horse, with a better sense of self-preservation and an ability to think under pressure rather than punt, this would not have happened.

But so what? I still ended up with a saddle horn in the ribs and sitting on a horse who would rear under pressure. I can blame her all day and it won’t change the outcome. When I replayed the tape in my mind, I figured out that I had had something to do with this, months earlier. But the situation went from scary to officially bad because she was small and more apt to lose her balance than an animal of a decent size. Lesson learned-- I respect a baby’s need to keep its balance at all costs.

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=mvp;4659705]

See, meupatdoes is very tall, and decent-sized baby is narrow. The problem, and probably one reason the OP is giving him a super tactful ride, is that it would be really, really easy to get out of balance…[/QUOTE]

Eh, I don’t buy this. I’m very tall and can ride narrow horses with no problem. Those long legs are an advantage when it comes to balance – they are a great anchor, as you can wrap them around any shape horse much more easily than someone with short stubby legs can. Tall does not equate top-heavy, and MPD does not look top-heavy at all to me.

Still, as long as she and her trainer were pleased with her very cute horse, that’s what counts. Nothing in these rounds is the type of problem that would scar him for life. I’ve certainly seen (and done) much worse on babies, even when carrying my trusty crop. One particular catch-ride who decided to pogo-stick-deer-hop around a Hopeful Hunter class comes to mind… :lol: I think the trainer gave him to me so that he wouldn’t have to be seen on him.

Edited to add: I don’t think that MPD’s horse was in any danger of flipping or falling down either. And I’ve seen some very large horses flip with very small riders. It happens.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=tidy rabbit;4659784]

I asked a simple question… I asked “where is your crop?”

To which the OP gave a ridiculous answer.[/QUOTE]

I suppose my answer should have been, “Where is the part where I asked for advice?”

I didn’t have you pegged for someone who would barge in with unsolicited training advice, and then get progressively more nasty and condescending with each of your posts, and progressively devolving to most sportsmanly personal attacks, but hey, I guess we all make mistakes.

It remains much, much easier for me to effectively use a dressage whip, with the degree of finesse and timing with which I prefer to apply my aids, than a crop. I am slick enough to use a crop, but way slicker with a dressage whip. I’d rather have a tool that I can use without taking my hand off the rein. I used an example of a common schooling objective to explain why.
Thus, I prefer not to use a crop, and, as a corrollary to this premise, do not own one.

Sorry if you find that to be a ridiculous answer, but why you are choosing to make such an aggressive and persistant case about it on the internet is a little beyond me. Just because you disagree with someone’s reasoning on their choice of equipment, when they explain it to you at your request, doesn’t mean you have to go into repeated attack mode.

Additionally, I have a very long fuse with horses, especially young ones, and am much more likely to save punishment for later, after encouragement and quiet persistence have failed, so even if I HAD been carrying a crop, I probably would not have used it in this instance. I am sorry you apparently find this to be such a grave offense against How It Should Be, but again, you are not actually REQUIRED to go into personal attack mode or to commence unsolicitedly arm chair training because you disagree with the choices somebody makes in their training program on their horse. It would be possible for you to, you know, not.

Good luck with your horses. It must be an awful lot of pressure to have to ride Perfectly Every Ride and to Never Allow Mistakes To Occur for fear of ruining your young horses’ careers forever. But I am guessing you probably have some iffy moments, whether caused by you or your horse, that crop up in your schooling as well, and that your horses, like mine, will probably turn out just fine.

[Equino]

I highly doubt any of us expect perfect rides, no mistakes. I think the best way to train a greenie is to allow them to make the mistakes and have the rider correct them, so that they are aware what their job is. I rode my greenie today after almost a 3 week break. He was dead quiet and distracted, figured his time off meant no more work again. He wanted to slow down at the door, crane his neck and watch the grooms bring the ponies in from the field. The first time he did this, I asked for an inside bend and used my leg, he went straightened up and went on. The 2nd time by, he tried to suck back and look again, he got a firm smack behind my leg with the crop and while he did overreact for a couple strides, he never once tried to suck back and look out the door again. Point across, I didn’t beat him or back a huge deal out of it, but he had to learn that was not the behavior I wanted. He’s allowed to make mistakes, so am I, but what comes next matters most, which is the difference from learning what is correct, and developing a bad habit.

I’m not trying to armchair train, I am not a trainer. But I do hate when people think it’s ok for young horses to repetitively make the same mistakes without changing their approach/ride, I don’t find certain antics cute or funny-these are 1000lb animals, not a fuzzy little kitty, and I agree a five year old is not a baby.