Baby Green Hunter Moment VIDEO UPDATE on p 10

[DMK]

@meupatdoes;4658509

GM almost killed the last trainer I rode with, sending both him and his horse for a flip in a lesson.
I’d rather not.

LOL, well don’t bother with disciples of all the classical masters either (although they would all argue that you should be able to master spurs, crop and aids … of course they also expect you to keep stellar eq form o/f w/o stirrups and I’m an Epic Fail in that department, so there is that…)

If not using a crop is the way you want to go, more power to you, not every rule fits every horse or every rider … But was that ride what you would call appropriately forward or in front of your leg? A horse can only land in that kind of heap on the backside of a fence so many times before they justifiably come to the conclusion that jumping suck, and stopping at the ingate more than once? Once can happen. Twice starts to be reinforced behavior. Third time? Ouch. These are the sad truths of training greenies. Do overs? Not so much for greenies.

Our job as riders is to make sure that they don’t have a scary experience or reinforce bad behaviors, and if the way we prefer to train on a horse isn’t coming up with the desired results, it’s probably time to get out of our safety zone and see if another method might get the job done. Or that’s what I try to remind myself when I find myself stuck in “well that’s how I like to do it” (this comes with a lower lip pout, btw)

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=tidy rabbit;4658605]
I think this group has been MORE than kind to you about the rounds you posted. Why are you being such a little brat?[/QUOTE]

Surely if everyone is being “MORE than” kind, then DIRECTLY QUOTING the “MORE than” kindness is not being a little brat?

Because otherwise that is an interesting double standard you’ve got going on there. (Right along with assuming -correctly- that I already have a trainer in one breath, and in another advising me on who to train with and how to ride.)

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

I think we’re all being relatively civil. There are some pretty big issues with both of those rounds, which you clearly are aware of (hence the title of this thread). I agree with DMK when she says once is okay, twice is a habit. Very dangerous on a very green horse. I also question the idea that in using a crop, one abandons their ride. I think that’s a relative issue better handled with one’s trainer than on COTH. But I do suggest all riders, regardless of the type of horse they are riding, learn how to effectively use a crop without abandoning their ride.

But since you’ve got a trainer who’s helping you with this guy and you’re happy with how he’s coming along, I wish you the best of luck. He’s quite cute. One can acquire some WONDERFUL advice on this board (which is also evident in this thread). It’s your choice whether you’d like to use it or not.

[RND]

Do you know a confident rider who can work with him and who will let go of his face, get off his back, and install a “forward” button for you? He’s awfully cute, but he looks totally confused about what he’s supposed to do, and all you really did was reassure him that backwards is the way to go. Can your trainer work with him?

[RugBug]

Cute boy, meupatdoes. I loved how you stayed so chill. That can be so hard…especially when they are letting you know they are overwhelmed.

Didn’t you post some video of his first time doing a crossrail course? I remember liking him then.

@meupatdoes;4658548

Your guy is adorable!

(And how on earth did you make it around with no crop? If you were COMPETANT you would know to ALWAYS carry one.)

Now, now. It’s your and your trainer’s choice to use a crop. It could’ve been beneficial to you in this situation, but not carrying one is the choice you made. :shrug: I personally would’ve wanted one to get some forward response…and maybe for a bit of distraction.

[hntrjmprpro45]

He is very cute and I think he behaved very well for his first show. Green and young horses do very silly things. However, I must agree with what has been said about using/carrying a crop. I won’t repeat what others have said (mainly because they are spot on), but yes a riding crop is an invaluable tool when dealing with young horses. He is cute but really needs to be in front of the leg as others have said.

[Catomine]

[QUOTE=tidy rabbit;4656679]
Where is your crop?

I use a crop to help steer in scary situations… for instance one of my horses will ALWAYS run out to the right if given the opportunity so I always lay my crop on his right shoulder to help balance him up and keep him from running out. And if I feel him start to balk I’m not afraid to give him a little tappty tap on that shoulder where he’s thinking about running out.

Then if I know he’s going to be balky about another fence going to the left I’ll switch it on course so I get a little assistance coming up to the fence. Must. outsmart. the. evil. babies.

Good luck with your young horse![/QUOTE]

I was going to say the same thing! Just use it to get out of sticky situations, I still carry one even if I don’t otherwise need it, just in case!

[Catomine]

[QUOTE=Roxy SM;4656896]
While I think there are certain horses with which it is not best to carry a crop, like a horse that gets very tense when he knows you have one, if your reason for not carrying one is because it makes you abandon your ride nobody ever taught you how to use one correctly. A quick smack behind the leg while your legs,seat, and other hand keep contact does not require any loss of control or other aids.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, I think not being able to get a horse past a corner and backing out of a ring is more of an abandoned ride than holding the reins in one hand for a second to give a quick reinforcing tap on the bum. A rider should be able to keep the horse balanced and straight even while using a crop.

[Mara]

I realize I’m risking getting my own head twisted off for saying so, but it seems that some posters are seeing meupatdoes’ thread and video as an opportunity for, uh, payback? She’s never been shy about posting her opinions and calling 'em as she sees 'em. Just seems like some folks who feel they’ve been stung by her in the past are licking their lips at the prospect of being able to criticize. I’m detecting a dash of venom just barely concealed within some posts that I usually don’t notice when others post their videos.

I’m not necessarily discounting anyone’s opinions. But the tone of some of the criticisms does seem a touch. . .vengeful, for lack of a better word.

[CenterStage123]

He’s a cutie! Reminds me of my used to be greenie. I have to agree about useing the crop though. Stopping at the ingate is a very bad habit, and a hard one to break. I rode a catch ride who used to do this, and if I didn’t let him stop, he would rear. I would use the crop the second I felt him slow down, behind my leg. If he reared, he would get a smack on the poll, every time he went up in the air. And he was in a pelham. I don’t think I was abondoning my ride at all. And I think if I can hold double reins and manage to whack a rearing horse in between the ears, it shouldn’t be that hard to give him a simple smack behind the leg.

At my greenie’s first show, he somehow, miraculously, marched around the ring like a seasoned show horse. We added in the lines(purposely, but only one stride not 3 like in the OP’s!) but he was still going forward and at a good pace. We even got his first lead change! I was a very proud momma!

But best of luck with your guy! He is very cute and will turn into a nice horse!

[Equino]

I have no idea who meupatdoes is so i am not one who is using this thread to snark at a poster for her previous posts. What I saw in that video is an adorable, green horse with potential, learning it is OK to be gate bound, to put on the brakes and refuse to get around a course. There is nothing cute about backing out of the ring or going slow to slower to stop. Nothing cute about barely getting across a jump and landing in a heap. I look at this forum as educational, as a way to share experiences and there is no way I would think it was cute if any of my horses turned in a similar performance at their first show. My current 6 yr old greenie, in real training for about a year (before that, 60 days as a 3 year old), jumping even less, went to 3 shows last fall as a 5 yr old, and while he had his green moments…meaning, a swap out, an animated change and a couple playful moments after the jumps out of the whole 3 shows, he went around the whole course without refusing to go, did the correct strides and got better and better each class because he understands his job and is comfortable in a ring by himself.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

[QUOTE=Mara;4658853]
I realize I’m risking getting my own head twisted off for saying so, but it seems that some posters are seeing meupatdoes’ thread and video as an opportunity for, uh, payback? She’s never been shy about posting her opinions and calling 'em as she sees 'em. Just seems like some folks who feel they’ve been stung by her in the past are licking their lips at the prospect of being able to criticize. I’m detecting a dash of venom just barely concealed within some posts that I usually don’t notice when others post their videos.

I’m not necessarily discounting anyone’s opinions. But the tone of some of the criticisms does seem a touch. . .vengeful, for lack of a better word.[/QUOTE]

I’ll bite. I’m aware of meupatdoes’ posts here. I’m aware that she has a strong opinion on certain issues, and that she’s not shy about expressing them- sometimes in a less-than-sensitive way. As far as I know, I’ve never been subject to such opinionated posts, but I am aware of them. I, too, am this way at times. But if you can dish it out, you’ve GOT to be able to take it with a light heart. It is what it is.

I like using a crop with my own “distracted type” because when his eye starts wandering, I can put it into his line of vision and take his attention elsewhere. Rarely do I actually touch him with it, though I know how to do this without “abandoning” my ride. But make no qualms about it, I think every rider should learn to use a crop properly. If someone’s trainer is of the opinion that a crop is not an effective aid, I’d be worried about paying such a person to teach me to ride.

[Beethoven]

I have to agree with the crop people. I have nothing against the OP at all. As you can see in the videos I posted, I actually had my girl going a bit to fast and rode past a lot of the distances, but I just was so focused on forward to the jump and going over and not stopping at them that I ended up over riding a bit. Hey it was her first show and man is it hard to find distances to such tiny jumps.:lol: While I did not have a crop when I showed, I had schooled her over the jumps and carried a crop at that time just in case. I was wearing spurs though in the show ring.

I agree that a crop could have been used effectively at this time. I agree that a dressage whip at home is much more effective when schooling a lateral movement but come on this is a h/j show not a dressage one. There are not leg yields here. A smack on the a$$ might have made the horse focused and able to get around the course more successfully or just a pair of spurs.

I am far from perfect as can be seen in the videos, but I agree that in the OPs case a crop would have been beneficial!:yes:

[Claudius]

the crop issue

As I posted earlier, I liked your poise and generous attitude with this colt in this very scary arena. I too have a coming four year old, and I think it is really important to give them a pleasant experience initially. It is best not to overface them, but in this case, the arena was the culprit not the appropriate fences. To hit a frightened horse is not always the best move…to hit an ornery one, a bully, a pig…yes, but a baby horse…I just felt that you handled it very well, and that his willingness the second trip was building his confidence in the right manner. Best to train him to go because you are a team and you are on his side, then to go because he is afraid of you. Keep up the good work, time enough for a crop. but you should learn to carry one nonetheless.

[Mara]

[QUOTE=Beethoven;4658935]
I have to agree with the crop people. I have nothing against the OP at all. As you can see in the videos I posted, I actually had my girl going a bit to fast and rode past a lot of the distances, but I just was so focused on forward to the jump and going over and not stopping at them that I ended up over riding a bit. Hey it was her first show and man is it hard to find distances to such tiny jumps.:lol: While I did not have a crop when I showed, I had schooled her over the jumps and carried a crop at that time just in case. I was wearing spurs though in the show ring.

I agree that a crop could have been used effectively at this time. I agree that a dressage whip at home is much more effective when schooling a lateral movement but come on this is a h/j show not a dressage one. There are not leg yields here. A smack on the a$$ might have made the horse focused and able to get around the course more successfully or just a pair of spurs.

I am far from perfect as can be seen in the videos, but I agree that in the OPs case a crop would have been beneficial!:yes:[/QUOTE]

I did mention that it was only some posts that had a snarky tint to them - yours was not one.
I don’t know meupatdoes personally; I do know she doesn’t mince words here. I’ve occasionally read a post or two of hers and thought “ouch”. (And I have drooled over her grey Thoroughbred!)

It’s just that, whenever others have posted their vids, the criticisms didn’t usually seem quite as barbed.

(Oh, and I love, love, love your mare. She looks like she’s tremendous fun to ride!)

[shalomypony]

Love,love,love him!!!Too funny when he moonwalked out.But boy oh boy…he’s 'gonna be fancy when he figures it all out…lovely!!

[Horseforthecourse]

Mara,

I may have been one of the ones that you thought was being snarky. I don’t know the OP and generally agree with her posts.

The thing that got my feathers riled was when she called bad training ‘cute’. The reason that it even bothered me was that I thought the OP to be very competent like she always came across in her posts.

I tend to be very blunt, maybe a little too blunt. I call things like I see them and don’t often hold back.

I meant no harm to the OP and wish her good luck in her future endeavors. Everyone has to learn how to introduce young horses to new environments sometime. Hopefully, she can learn from this experience and move forward (no pun intended) with her cute, young horse.

I actually do agree with her on her George Morris post on this thread as well. I would pick a few other trainers/clinicians before him for reasons like the one that she stated.

[enjoytheride]

How old is he? He looks really young but I think he’s 5ish?

If having a crop really means not using your leg, then explain what happened? You didn’t really kick him hard or did you?

If you kicked him and he didn’t respond to your leg then what is your next step since you don’t believe in the crop?

[ILuvMyBoy]

Thanks OP! I really like the young ones but could never do it without the trainers I have. That’s my trainer in the video who is a phenomenal rider and I haven’t ever seen her ride him with a crop. I’ve seen her carry one at shows more than at home but it really depends who she’s on I guess. We shall see what happens with my guy this weekend!

[tidy_rabbit]

@Claudius;4658962

As I posted earlier, I liked your poise and generous attitude with this colt in this very scary arena. I too have a coming four year old, and I think it is really important to give them a pleasant experience initially. It is best not to overface them, but in this case, the arena was the culprit not the appropriate fences. To hit a frightened horse is not always the best move…to hit an ornery one, a bully, a pig…yes, but a baby horse…I just felt that you handled it very well, and that his willingness the second trip was building his confidence in the right manner. Best to train him to go because you are a team and you are on his side, then to go because he is afraid of you. Keep up the good work, time enough for a crop. but you should learn to carry one nonetheless.

This is a 5 y.o. it’s not a baby. It’s had a lot of life experience and should be better trained than this by now.

Letting him make the calls in the arena is not going to make them a team.

Letting him stop at a fence is not going to make him brave.

Riding him correctly with correct aids both natural and artificial is not cruel. Well, maybe if you’re a PETA member.

I mean, come on, even Pat Parelli knows the damn things need to go forward first and foremost!