Baby Quirk or Something Worse?

[candyappy]

@Posting_Trot

Personally, just because of the importing, I’d treat him for ulcers even if you don’t think he has them. It won’t hurt him to do 4 weeks of Gastroguard, and it could make a lot of difference.

It also seems appropriate to have the vet really check him out.

@ScarlettTrinity
Try the Nexium and you really won’t be out much cost wise and even if you don’t think he has ulcers it won’t do him any harm to try it.

Biting at himself is not normal and I really think he is trying to cope and it really makes no difference if you only see it when he has his 20- 30 minutes a day of self exercise. That means he can be doing it a lot when you aren’t in his stall to see it.
I know you can’t do anything to change his turnout but do they have stalls with attached paddocks available? It would at least be more visually stimulating and offer a bit more room to move.

My youngster at 2 1/2 will still play with( and destroy if able) anything he can get his mouth on and he is out on 4.5 acres with 2 other horses 24/7. My 10 year old mule was the same way so it is a behavior that some never outgrow despite idea living conditions.

[ScarlettTrinity]

@Posting_Trot he is a Holsteiner and he is definitely a baby dork. He turned 5 this and still has a lot of that baby brain. I understand where you and others are coming from about the ulcers but as I said, he has absolutely zero symptoms. He’s also on a supplement that has the pre and probiotics and provides gut support. I hesitate to treat him for ulcers because what you’re really doing is shutting down the acid production in the stomach and then the body goes, “oh wait, we don’t have enough for digestion so let’s make more.” My other horse that has ulcers has had them for awhile and since she cribs, they will never really resolve, only flair. Had a lot of long talks with vets about her ulcers so it’s not my first rodeo. Also, my geldings behavior is so rare, that with the ulcer meds, I doubt I’d be able to see any kind of change or difference. He’s also super chill and very quiet so I’m not very worried about him developing ulcers from the travel. Should things escalate, I will definitely have a vet out and consider other treatment. For now, he’s in work, not very stressed, building up his muscles, and has a fair amount of toys at his disposal.

@candyappy he’s in a stall that’s sightly smaller than 24 x 48 so he has a lot more room than a 12 x 20 or any regular box stall. It’s also a very open barn. He also has a neighbor on one side and the back half of his stall is open so he can see all the horses, people, and vehicles that come and go. We’ve had some rain so no friends in the round pen above to watch but there’s a road behind him that is frequently used. I did have to put up a sign so people would stop petting him and giving him treats. He’s a very social guy but he was turning into a mouthy rude monster.

I will have only had him for two months in about two weeks. Again, I’m not really fussed since he’s still settling in and the behavior hasn’t increased. If it becomes more of a thing, I’ll definitely have the vet out.

[Justice]

@Equkelly,

Thanks for the laugh. I love that you know my colt (that I bred) better than I do. What was I thinking? Also noted are your lovely manners, and kind tone. Your parents must be proud.

[Gardenhorse]

I just want to note that ulcers manifest differently in every horse. Just because your mare presents one way when she has ulcers doesn’t mean the new guy will present the same. I would not just blindly treat for ulcers, but I would certainly consider scoping if you can’t figure out another reason for his behavior.

[Xanthoria]

@ScarlettTrinity

not everyone has access to a pasture situation. To assume or expect people to be able to turn out or pasture their horses for multiple hours a day is not only obnoxious, and rude, it’s ignorant.

It is neither obnoxious, rude nor ignorant to expect people to keep herd animals in a way that benefits their physical and mental health. Quite the opposite. It’s considered good horse management and good horsemanship to provide turnout for horses.

Yes there are some areas of the world where turnout is scarce. I live in one. You have to provide alternate forms of exercise and mental stimulation, or you can expect to see stereotypies galore.

[Abbie.S]

While I agree Equkelly’s delivery leaves something to be desired (the old “you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar” adage comes to mind…) they do have a point, OP.

Horses are herd animals. They were designed to live in groups and range over vast distances. Yes, many will manage reasonably well in set-ups other than this, but that is for no other reason other than horses are expert adapters - they are constantly shifting their behavior to accommodate the environmental pressures and stressors they face. The fact that they can and do adapt to deal with the stressors than come with the conveniences stall-keeping provide for US does not mean this manner of keeping is ideal or fair to the horse. Alas, it is common and considered the “norm”, but let’s be clear it is NOT normal for the horse, just normal for us.

So you can keep your horses however you want, that’s your prerogative. It would just be a shame not to be honest with yourself about the reality of the husbandry situation you’ve chosen.

This thread keeps making me come back to a saying I heard first from Harry Whitney: “Relaxed horses all look the same, it’s anxiety that causes them to look all sorts of ways and do all sorts of things.”

[asterix]

He gets out 20-30 minutes a day by himself in an arena?
I am in agreement with others, this is not sufficient for (any) horse, but definitely not a young horse.
If you had the financial capacity to import a horse from Europe, surely you have the capacity to provide him with the basic turnout requirements.
Do what you need to and get this horse out of a box and socializing with others for more than 1/50th of a day.

[ScarlettTrinity]

With respect, I don’t think you guys have been reading all the posts/comments and that’s fair because there are a lot of them. So, let me provide some final clarity for any concerned people who check back on here.

1. It is obnoxious, rude, and ignorant to assume everyone has access to a pasture situation and if they don’t, they shouldn’t have horses. As @Xanthoria said, in some areas turnout is scarce and you have to provide alternatives for exercise, mental stimulation, and overall health. Also, I’d like to point out there are horses kept in a turnout/pasture situation who are neglected and abused. A turnout/pasture does not equal overall health of the animal.

2. Yes, horses have a “herd” mentality and area used to having a lot of free space to roam. However, being in a herd and a pasture are not necessarily the same thing. You can have a group of horses in a herd and in a pasture. You can have a horse in a pasture but that’s not a herd. You can have a group of horses in a pasture and one might be left out of the herd. You can have horses in large stalls with barn mates and their own known family which constitutes their own herd. Every situation is a little different.

3. Every horse is different and unique. Not all of them will have the same wants and needs. I have previous experience with turning horses out to pasture (which means a large dirt lot where I am) and neither of them were happy or thrived. One found a new boyfriend she kind of liked and the other was left out of the group and got depressed. Both were immensely happy when we brought them back. I have an older man who would wither away and die if I put him out to pasture. He loves seeing all the people in the barn, the horses coming and going, watching horses be silly in the round pens, scoping out the wildlife on the other side of the boundary fence (horses out on trail, coyotes, rabbits, road runners, hawks, deer, and squirrels oh my!) all the snuggles and cuddles from people, and being part of his own herd, of which, he’s the boss man. He also still loves to work and be active, he’s incredibly grumpy when it rains and he can’t get out. Perhaps we’ve let down horses by domesticating them and potentially creating a dependency on us for happiness but some animals, horses included, are people animals and some like to stick to their own kind. That’s a different kind of debate though.

4. My new horse is not getting out for only 20-30 minutes a day. He is also not kept in a tiny box. He’s in a very airy stall that is just slightly smaller than 24’ x 48’. I should also mention that where I’m located, that’s huge for a horse stall. Most accommodations are a box stall or just slightly bigger. He has a lot of room to move (which he utilizes), he has a neighbor, and several things to keep him occupied. He gets worked for at least an hour a day, if not more. He interacts with many people throughout the day. He gets turned out (free time in a larger space) to run around and be an idiot for 20-30 minutes. He’s not alone, sad, depressed, anxious, or otherwise upset. I kept his turnout time limited when he arrived due to his weaker hind end from standing around and travel. I didn’t want him to run around and hurt himself by being stupid. Also, since he’s still building back muscle I’m not going to get him out twice a day so he can fatigue and hurt himself. He works hard in that hour plus and is definitely tired after. There’s nothing to gain by adding more work he can’t physically handle right now.

5. The horse has been seen by a vet and he’s been seen by others as well. No one is overly concerned unless the behavior escalates, which it has not. I haven’t seen it or heard about it for some time now. Horses are weird, that’s a fact.

6. I have nothing else to add to this conversation. If you all want to continue to disparage me, that’s cool but is not going to change anything. I know my horse is happy and healthy and that’s really all that matters to me. So, thanks for everyone’s input but I’m out.

[Equkelly]

This is just a general comment because the OP is clearly a very lost cause and it’s clear she’s really not interested in doing right by her horse…

HOWEVER

If you really can’t manage to provide for your animal’s basic needs, then you shouldn’t have animals. If someone else came on here and said they won’t be providing their horse with water because it’s just not an option where they live, and that they’re sick of all the disparaging comments we’d all lose our damn minds.

But when it’s turnout, or when it’s about the horse’s mental well-being… it’s somehow acceptable and that shouldn’t be the case.

Horses being locked in a stall 24/7 is not ethical management. If I lived in an area of the world where that was my only option to own horses, I just wouldn’t own horses. I’m sorry, it’s not right.

Oh and save all your energy attacking my “tone” or my “my delivery”. I’m not the problem here. The problem is why this is acceptable in the equine industry and it’s acceptable because people let it be.

[Peggy]

I live in an area where horses living in individual paddocks or stalls is the norm, but they are not “locked in 24/7.” While I realize it’s not ideal (and cruel by some people’s standards) it’s what we have. Keeping horses in this situation means that you get them out every day for some sort of exercise or stimulation so they aren’t in 24/7. My typical routine is to ride, walk out afterwards, do a turnout for 40-60 minutes, clean up horse and put away, and often hand walk right before I leave the barn. Any situation with horses being turned out for a significant portion of the day would involve a drive of over an hour (closer to 2 hours if not COVID light) which would mean I wouldn’t get out to the barn as many days, thereby providing the horse with less exercise and stimulation.

[Cat_Tap]

After 40 years of looking after horses I can’t fathom keeping them without turnout. I have had all kinds from weanlings to OTTBs, show horses etc.

When a new horse arrives he goes out with the quiet boss old quarter horse. The old horse likes his job and is sensible. Once the new horse has adjusted to the new facility he and his now buddy will join the group. It mostly goes without incidents but I am on standby just in case.

My horses are out from dawn until dusk in the winter except for freezing rain and out at night in the summer.

A friend of mine who bred, trained and raced TBs firmly believed a horse should be allowed to be a horse. He never kept them at the track. They always took them to the track and back home the same day. He even allowed them to have turn out the day of the race.

He was the first trainer to also race them barefoot. He needed special permission from the track to do so. He was also a nutrition specialist for Purina. His horses were always well mannered.

Two of his horses were at my place while waiting to be shipped to England.

I realize this is irrelevant to tho OP’s post but I am suffering from Covid lock down and wanted to add my 2cents.

[Equkelly]

I think the with the “no turnout” crowd it’s usually ignorance. I have a friend who I’m convinced thinks her horses are giant gerbils. Sometimes I do think it’s an elitist thing. I see some people with the attitude where it’s like “well my horse is an imported hanowhateverian so surely he cannot live outside like a peasant!” I just can’t stand people deluding themselves by thinking that that’s actually the best thing for a horse. I don’t get why OP, and others like her can’t just own that, the horse is living that way for human convenience not because it’s what’s best for the animal.

[Peggy]

So @Equkelly and @Cat_Tap what is your suggestion for those of us who effectively have no choice. It’s not a matter of thinking my horse is “too good” for turnout or the lack of a calm buddy horse. It is a simple lack of land.

Should I sell my horse? Move him to a place that will require driving at least two hours (realistically more if you want 24/7 turnout)? Move myself (I’m retired so could theoretically do that, but for many people it would result in a horrendous commute)? Kill him to save him from his horrible life? Send him to you?

[BigMama1]

Just to be clear - he’s worked for an hour and put loose in the ring for 30 minutes. So including grooming is only out of his stall for 2-2.5 hours a day?

That’s just not enough for physical or mental health. Do some horses do fine when managed like that? Sure some do. But yours does not not seem to. He’s giving you clear signs that concerned you enough to come here and ask for advice. And then you dismissed almost all the advice you’ve been given.

There is a balance between 30 minutes of loose playtime in and arena and being thrown into a pasture with a herd of horses 24/7. Is there no outdoor space at your barn for a few hours of individual turnout each day? And if not, are there other barns in your area that do?

[Xanthoria]

I’ve often felt there are some areas people live that just aren’t any good for horse keeping. For the horse, that is. I live in CA and finding a place within an hours drive with actual pastures was a PITA and I boarded there 17 years with no trainers, bad footing and so on. It was hard to compete that way.

Now I have a nice new horse I’m at a barn with trainers, indoor, all the things. And the horses are in a stall 18 hours a day with turnout in small groups. Or in a 40x40’ pen 24/7. And it’s so sad. And that’s a LOT of space compared to most places. I’m very conflicted.

If you’ve never kept a horse in a herd you’re missing out. They’re so much stronger, more relaxed, they have friends they groom, and flirtations, and a life. They’re not standing in a box waiting for those 1-2 hours a day when they can move, but only a little…

It’s depressing to think about, TBH.

[Equkelly]

@Peggy

hould I sell my horse?

Probably, yea.

@Peggy

Move him to a place that will require driving at least two hours (realistically more if you want 24/7 turnout)?

That would also work, yes.

@Peggy

Move myself (I’m retired so could theoretically do that, but for many people it would result in a horrendous commute)?

Another reasonable option, yes.

@Peggy

Kill him to save him from his horrible life?

Uhh why do we want to kill him? Do you think if you can’t have the horse nobody else should?

I’m sorry, I know this is a wildly unpopular opinion on here but if locking a horse in a litter box all day was my only option to have a horse then I just wouldn’t have a horse. I love my horse more than I love just having a horse. I know lots of people do this and it’s normalized but it’s completely unethical. I love riding, and I’d be devastated if I had to give that up but I also wouldn’t put my animal or any animal in a terrible situation just so I could ride. It’s selfish and unfair to them.

[Equkelly]

@Xanthoria

It’s depressing to think about, TBH.

Not to mention, for every lesson barn like that, they’re raising up an entire generation of younger equestrians who will grow up thinking that sort of management is ok.

[Peggy]

@Equkelly If everyone in SoCal that keeps horses in stalls were to sell them that probably would drive the price of show horses down so more people could afford them. Bonus! Equity in equestrian sport. Assuming there were enough people to buy them that could keep them “correctly.”

I recognize that the way we keep horses at large barns in SoCal is not ideal and that it seems foreign to people in some other parts of the country. I recognize that not all horses can adapt. But many do surprisingly well. Thrive even. And we’ve already done something unnatural to horses by domesticating then and riding them.

I’m just trying to provide a different perspective. You’ve made your point.

[Peggy]

@Equkelly

Uhh why do we want to kill him? Do you think if you can’t have the horse nobody else should?

Well you seem to think that anyone who doesn’t have consistent access to turnout shouldn’t have a horse so I’m extending that to say that if I can’t have my horse, no one can. (/sarcasm) <— new board doesn’t appreciate fake HTML

[Equkelly]

@Peggy

I’m just trying to provide a different perspective. You’ve made your point.

I believe you’re actually just trying to convince yourself that this management practice is ok. You’re not going to convince me, I already told you what I think. I think deep down you know it’s not right and you’re just trying to convince yourself. This is why it’s such a “controversial” issue. Every time anyone points out how unethical the practice is everyone on here sings the same songs about land access and affordability but in reality, it’s not an excuse.

The only reason why it’s a common practice is because it’s so normalized, and not just in areas like SoCal. I live in the west and people still do it here, people still do it on the east coast, it happens everywhere. Land isn’t cheap anywhere yet for some reason we’ve all written this reasoning off as an acceptable excuse. Why? Hay isn’t cheap either yet we know it’s a priority so we suck it up and buy it.

But for too many horse people, turnout, just isn’t a priority. I see it all the time ISO ads for boarding. People prioritize things like access to a trainer, an indoor, a short drive time, cost, but not enough people prioritize their horses living conditions and I think that’s really sad.