Baby Quirk or Something Worse?

[Peggy]

@Equkelly

believe you’re actually just trying to convince yourself that this management practice is ok. You’re not going to convince me, I already told you what I think. I think deep down you know it’s not right and you’re just trying to convince yourself.

“Less than ideal” doesn’t equal “not right.” Since I realize it’s less than ideal I do provide my horses with daily turnout, walks, etc.

Life a series of compromises. Turnout comes with its own risks—one friend’s yearling lost her eye when kicked by another horse in a field. Was it the right thing for a young horse to be out with other young horses? Yes. But it wasn’t without risk.

By and large people are trying to do their best for their horses. Yes, I’ve seen poorly cared for horses in boarding barns. And skinny neglected horses standing in big fields. Horses are neither easy nor cheap and, if they are, you’re probably doing something wrong. (paraphrased from someone on this board). Be kind. Be supportive.

We can agree to disagree. If thirty years of grade anxious pre-meds begging for higher grades didn’t ever cause me to change my mind, you’re not going to.

[Equkelly]

@Peggy

“Less than ideal” doesn’t equal “not right.” Since I realize it’s less than ideal I do provide my horses with daily turnout, walks, etc.

Only doing 7 or 8 hours a day or turnout would be “less than ideal”. Zero turnout is cruel. You can’t diminish that by trying to say it’s “less than ideal”. I mean sure, technically but let’s not pretend it’s just a simple trivial little thing. It’s one of your horses basic needs and to not give them that, you are neglecting their needs. That’s a lot more than “less than ideal.”

@Peggy

Turnout comes with its own risks—one friend’s yearling lost her eye when kicked by another horse in a field. Was it the right thing for a young horse to be out with other young horses? Yes. But it wasn’t without risk.

Your horse is more likely to colic than they are to suffer a traumatic injury and have to be euthanized. Turnout reduces the risk of colic so again, keeping them in isn’t for their benefit. Also if my horse did get kicked in the leg tomorrow, and I had to put her down I would obviously be devastated but again, her happiness is worth a lot more than my need to keep her in my life. God forbid if that happened, I wouldn’t change a single thing.

@Peggy

By and large people are trying to do their best for their horses

Ehh I don’t know about that. I think people want to do what’s best for themselves.

@Peggy

Be kind. Be supportive.

I absolutely do not have to support unethical management practices and I wish people would stop thinking they’re entitled to a safe space where nobody will call them on it. It’s unethical. If you don’t like hearing that, too bad. I’d say the same thing if you were denying your horse veterinary care, food, or water, or shelter. It’s a basic need, not a “bonus”.

@Peggy

We can agree to disagree. If thirty years of grade anxious pre-meds begging for higher grades didn’t ever cause me to change my mind, you’re not going to.

Turnout isn’t an opinion, it’s science. We know that reduced turnout increases the risk for colic, ulcers, vices, etc. Thats not somebody’s COTH opinion. That’s what the science says. So we can agree to disagree but let’s be clear what we really disagree on… I disagree that’s it’s ethical to sacrifice your animals’s well-being just so that you can preserve your need to have the animal. That is what this comes down to.

[Peggy]

@Equkelly

@Peggy

“Less than ideal” doesn’t equal “not right.” Since I realize it’s less than ideal I do provide my horses with daily turnout, walks, etc.

Only doing 7 or 8 hours a day or turnout would be “less than ideal”. Zero turnout is cruel. You can’t diminish that by trying to say it’s “less than ideal”. I mean sure, technically but let’s not pretend it’s just a simple trivial little thing. It’s one of your horses basic needs and to not give them that, you are neglecting their needs. That’s a lot more than “less than ideal.”

@Peggy

Turnout comes with its own risks—one friend’s yearling lost her eye when kicked by another horse in a field. Was it the right thing for a young horse to be out with other young horses? Yes. But it wasn’t without risk.

Your horse is more likely to colic than they are to suffer a traumatic injury and have to be euthanized. Turnout reduces the risk of colic so again, keeping them in isn’t for their benefit. Also if my horse did get kicked in the leg tomorrow, and I had to put her down I would obviously be devastated but again, her happiness is worth a lot more than my need to keep her in my life. God forbid if that happened, I wouldn’t change a single thing.

@Peggy

By and large people are trying to do their best for their horses

Ehh I don’t know about that. I think people want to do what’s best for themselves.

@Peggy

Be kind. Be supportive.

I absolutely do not have to support unethical management practices and I wish people would stop thinking they’re entitled to a safe space where nobody will call them on it. It’s unethical. If you don’t like hearing that, too bad. I’d say the same thing if you were denying your horse veterinary care, food, or water, or shelter. It’s a basic need, not a “bonus”.

@Peggy

We can agree to disagree. If thirty years of grade anxious pre-meds begging for higher grades didn’t ever cause me to change my mind, you’re not going to.

Turnout isn’t an opinion, it’s science. We know that reduced turnout increases the risk for colic, ulcers, vices, etc. Thats not somebody’s COTH opinion. That’s what the science says. So we can agree to disagree but let’s be clear what we really disagree on… I disagree that’s it’s ethical to sacrifice your animals’s well-being just so that you can preserve your need to have the animal. That is what this comes down to.

And I disagree that you have the right to demand that people keep horses to your standards and belittle them if they don’t.

Before I bow out here I’ll note that my horse had zero ulcers when Merial did an ulcer clinic a bit over a year ago. Yes zero.

[Equkelly]

@Peggy

And I disagree that you have the right to demand that people keep horses to your standards and belittle them if they don’t.

Am I demanding anywhere? No.
Have a belittled anyone? Again, no.

I made valid points on unethical horse management practices and that often makes offenders of said unethical practices feel insecure. I’m not responsible for your insecurities.

@Peggy

Before I bow out here I’ll note that my horse had zero ulcers when Merial did an ulcer clinic a bit over a year ago. Yes zero

Anecdotal evidence doesn’t trump research and expert opinions but ok? Good for you? Again, you’re trying to convince yourself it’s ok, not me.

[ladybugsbw]

I just think it would be sooo worth it to get your vet to scope him so you know for sure about the ulcers. It was $350 all in last time I had mine scoped and the peace of mind was priceless!

[endlessclimb]

If Bob has a problem with everyone, the problem is not everyone… it’s Bob.

[Ghazzu]

@Peggy

If thirty years of grade anxious pre-meds begging for higher grades didn’t ever cause me to change my mind, you’re not going to.

[lenapesadie]

Jane has a problem with practice XYZ that science has proven to be harmful. Jane also has a problem with the people that participate in XYZ practice. I don’t think Jane is the problem. Science doesn’t think Jane is the problem. Both think XYZ practice is the problem.

It used to be widely accepted to be a hateful racist. Fortunately enough people had a problem with that and slowly that issue is improving.

It used to be widely accepted to ride without a helmet. Then we had science and manufacturing improvements. We still have people that ride without a helmet.

It used to widely accepted to train horses to ridden work via systems involving physical cruelty. It still is in some places.

Culture evolves over time.

Horses don’t have the ability to organize peaceful protests. Humans will have to have those uncomfortable conversations if we want to promote horse welfare.

[endlessclimb]

You’re missing some history on the forums, I think.

[sascha]

Note to self, next time kill horse rather than commit her to months of stall rest for a pasture injury. She will be happier dead than fussed over by everyone, treated like royalty, and eventually recovered and allowed to go back outside with her friends. Got it. Dead is better than being stalled. Understood. Will do better next time. Oh wait, she’s currently serving another sentence of stall rest for another pasture accident. I should quit treatment right now and have her put down immediately. Nevermind her bright demeanour, pleasant attitude, and improving condition. She’s better off dead.

This will not resonate with the people it should smack upside the head, so everyone else can have a chuckle

[Equkelly]

@lenapesadie

Jane has a problem with practice XYZ that science has proven to be harmful. Jane also has a problem with the people that participate in XYZ practice. I don’t think Jane is the problem. Science doesn’t think Jane is the problem. Both think XYZ practice is the problem.

I think Jane sounds lovely.

[lenapesadie]

I’m not sure how history impacts making a statement backed by current scientific knowledge?

[lenapesadie]

Staying in bed 22 hrs a day is bad for your health. True statement.

Being put on bed rest due to pregnancy complications or another similar medical condition is likely good for your health. Also true statement

[endlessclimb]

This person disagrees with everyone in a violent and confrontational manner, no matter what, even when experts are present to counter her perceived truths. Look up her posting history. Cry wolf too many times and…

[sascha]

Except that EQK does not get that.

[sascha]

Additionally, equating bed rest to stall rest probably shouldn’t be done or those of us who have a disagreement with some parts of EQK’s “message” and its delivery would have her sleeping in a cave and hunting her own damn food with a sharpened stick because natural LoL

[Equkelly]

Stall rest is obviously not the same as a permanent management practice. Horses need turnout. I’m sorry some of you feel that that’s so radical of a concept that you need to bully and mock anyone on here who consistently says that.

It says more about you than it does about me.

[lenapesadie]

@endlessclimb

This person disagrees with everyone in a violent and confrontational manner, no matter what, even when experts are present to counter her perceived truths. Look up her posting history. Cry wolf too many times and…

Are there experts here stating that turn out is not highly beneficial for horse health?

You can dislike Bob and / or Jane. You can say Bob and / or Jane was wrong in the past. Those do not equal everything Bob and Jane say is unpleasant and wrong.

It’s hard to cry wolf over facts that are backed up by science.

I’m far more inclined to look up ways to improve horse welfare in situations where turn out is limited than I am to look up a poster’s comment history on other topics.

[lenapesadie]

Clearly she does. See her below comment

[lenapesadie]

@sascha

Additionally, equating bed rest to stall rest probably shouldn’t be done or those of us who have a disagreement with some parts of EQK’s “message” and its delivery would have her sleeping in a cave and hunting her own damn food with a sharpened stick because natural LoL

I don’t understand what you are trying to say?