Baby Quirk or Something Worse?

[Ghazzu]

I’ve been trying to figure out what this thread reminds me of, and it has finally occurred to me.

I lost my dog to renal disease in May.
I’ve been looking for another dog for months, now.
Given that there are relatively few requirements on my end, one would think that it wouldn’t be that hard.

Yet so many of the dogs I check out on various websites have an incredible list of “must have” and “must not” in the dog’s profile. Some of the requirements appear quite sensible, others are flat out over the top.
And many of the same places that have numerous qualifications on who can adopt a dog also have many whose bios include “Fido has been at our rescue for X months now, and we really want to find Fido a forever family.”
Yes, I get it that matching a dog with the right setting increases the odds of success, but any place that has a list like: must have another dog for company, must have an 8 foot fence, owner must not be absent for more than 2-3 hours at a time, etc. should not be surprised that they have limited the pool of potential adopters.

I guess what I’m trying to say is “do not let the best be the enemy of the good.”

[Brokegirl]

You dont have to put him out for 20 hours a day. Even 5 or so hours would be great. Standing and moseying around is still great for them. I would say this probably has something to do with him being so confined

[sascha]

When did 24/7 t/o become a basic need?

When did domesticated horses bred for their ability to adapt/specialize become wild again?

Should feral cats live out 24/7 regardless of whether we can offer them a gentler, longer life to those who can be tamed enough to live indoors?

Am I actually arguing against 24/7 turnout? Yes and no. Great for some and in some climates. Disastrous for others and in some climates. Your insistent bleating with your fingers stuffed firmly in your ears does not lend you any credibility for being able to do anything but drone on about something you read in a magazine or study which lumps all horses into the same category.

There once was a study done on cattle and lameness concluding that foot wraps caused lameness. The study, done at slaughter point, failed to understand that foot wraps are put on cattle who are lame as part of the process of making them sound.

[Equkelly]

@Brokegirl

You dont have to put him out for 20 hours a day. Even 5 or so hours would be great. Standing and moseying around is still great for them. I would say this probably has something to do with him being so confined

I totally agree with this.

[Equkelly]

@Ghazzu

I guess what I’m trying to say is “do not let the best be the enemy of the good.”

But nowhere here did anyone say that the horse needs to be turned out 24/7. Everyone here I’ve seen has just said that no turnout is not good and is likely causing problems so I don’t know how that always gets equated to people thinking they need to turn their horses out all the time and live like dairy cattle. That’s not at all what anyone is saying.

As a side note, I’m really sorry to hear about your pup. Some animal rescues are the worst and make me want to rip my hair out with their standards. FWIW, I fostered and volunteered before adopting my rescue dog was able to get around some of their crazy high standards because they knew me.

[lenapesadie]

@Equkelly

My point was about why zero turnout is so normalized when it shouldn’t be. And that’s what’s leading to all the criticism…

@lenapesadie said it best. Horses can’t organize peaceful protests and we need to have these hard discussions.

It is a hard discussion. There will be much wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth.

[KBC]

@Equkelly

@KBC

Now I actually agree that 24 hour no turn out sucks, but I also wouldn’t suggest people sell their horses, or refrain from buying because they do not have access to that luxury

I disagree. My horses basic needs aren’t a luxury. They’re basic needs.

WOW, Then there would be a heck of a lot less homes for horses.

Again there are places where turn out is not an option, not for extended periods, and that is where good management steps in.

Again, we all work to ideals, but we have to do the best with what we have.

[endlessclimb]

Horses standing in ankle deep mud on 24/7 turnout (or on previously deep mud, now rutted frozen ground) are not intrinsically healthier than ones on limited turnout.

There are also hot house flowers that hate turnout.

You can not broad brush say that the 24/7 turnout horse is healthier than the horse with top notch management at a world class barn. I’m sure their management would love to hear you blabber about it though.

Let’s see those perfect 24/7 turnout arrangements. I expect to see impeccable footing and drop dead safe fencing, with run ins appropriate for the size of the herd and feed in multiple locations to encourage movement and discourage bullying. And… go!

[lenapesadie]

24/7 turn out is quite the opposite of no turn out.

I don’t currently keep my horse out 24/7, but I have kept horses that way previously. Certainly it was good for my riding horses and the broodmares and youngsters.

From ten years ago

40 acres of rolling pasture. Note the grass under the snow. It’s easier to minimize mud on large acreages and few horses in mild climates.

Let’s see if I can find any pics of the catch pens used for individual grain feedings if needed and the run in barn.

[Equkelly]

Nobody is saying that this horse or any horse needs to be turned out 24/7. You are jumping to one extreme to prove what exactly? To argue against the radical belief that…checks notes… Horses need turn out?

I mean really @endlessclimb, I know that being a CoTh bully is one of your dearest hobbies, but really? This hill?

[Equkelly]

@lenapesadie

24/7 turn out is quite the opposite of no turn out.

Exactly. They have no argument to defend why Zero turnout is ethical so they just jump to an extreme, of turning some poor horse loose in a muddy field like neglected dairy cattle. Which, first of all, nobody said the animal needs to live out 24/7. People just said the animal needs turnout. That’s what people are mad about.

I do understand it’s a harsh reality and complicates horse ownership for a lot of people but we do have to acknowledge the welfare side of it.

Also that is a lovely pic!!

[lenapesadie]

@Equkelly

I do understand it’s a harsh reality and complicates horse ownership for a lot of people but we do have to acknowledge the welfare side of it.

Also that is a lovely pic!!

It’s like a 12 step program. Step 1 admit it’s a problem.

Thank you. That was one of two snows I survived there. The horses didn’t seem to mind it nearly as much as I did.

[Peggy]

Stopping back in to note some facts.

Neither the OP nor I said our horses got zero turnout. FWIW. But somehow not zero got rounded to zero.

The two horses I actually own at the moment are out 24/7. One is retired and in a large pasture with other horses. It is roughly four hours away with no traffic. I haven’t seen him since before the pandemic bc that’s more than I want to drive on my own and I live alone and don’t want to spend eight plus hours in a car sharing someone’s air. The other one, on rehab for an injury he sustained by stepping on a rock at a horse show, lives over an hour away (longer if there’s traffic) in a fairly large, irregularly-shaped area with one other horse. They have a shelter and no mud. It’s the lease horse that I am currently torturing at the urban barn.

[BigMama1]

I don’t think anybody here is saying horses have to be out 24/7. But 30 minutes doesn’t cut it. Even a few hours a day would be better than nothing or next to nothing.

[lenapesadie]

The OP said 20-30 mins of turn out in an arena. You’re right it’s not exactly zero.

[Equkelly]

@lenapesadie

Thank you. That was one of two snows I survived there. The horses didn’t seem to mind it nearly as much as I did.

I feel your pain. It was -17 last night and it’s currently -5 tonight. Mine is still out with a blanket, plenty of hay. But she also has a decent sized shelter and she’s unclipped so that helps.

@BigMama1

I don’t think anybody here is saying horses have to be out 24/7. But 30 minutes doesn’t cut it. Even a few hours a day would be better than nothing or next to nothing.

If we’re calling 30 minutes alone loose in an arena “turnout” then I’m calling me walking up one flight of stairs “exercise”. It’s technically true, but not adequate enough to be meaningful or relevant.

[endlessclimb]

Can we observe your perfect turnout situation? Just to see what perfection looks like, ya know?

[Equkelly]

@endlessclimb

Can we observe your perfect turnout situation? Just to see what perfection looks like, ya know?

Well given that you have a history of cyber stalking and doxxing, eff no I’m not sharing pictures of where my horse lives. I make a point not to share photos like that on here because users like you, useless climb, make me feel unsafe.

[sascha]

That was not the point. The point was that 1/2 hour was rounded down to zero to make the OP’s situation look “worse”. It was unnecessary and untrue.

[SadieRidingHorses]

Beautiful horse!