He will only go backwards when he is doing this. And i cannot allow him to back into other horses. When he is good, he does do what i ask. If i ask him to move forward or side to side or back up, he will do whatever i ask. Except when he has these episodes.
How long does he stand and look before he will move forward? If you don’t pressure, he just stands still?
My guy, who has done this in the past (but is now down to maybe 2 seconds of stop - after so many hundreds of trail miles) - here’s the thing: a time or two, he has been right. Once, he was refusing because there was a snake in his path. I was so stuck on the fact that he wouldn’t step over the obvious tree branch, I didn’t see the snake. So, who is dumb now? When we ride real trails, with real hazards, I want a horse who will stop and look if he isn’t sure. I want two brains working, all the time, not just mine. I know there are people who prefer a horse that keeps going where pointed, regardless, but I DO NOT. I have been saved from sucking mud, the snake, bees, an unstable bridge, and who knows what else, because I appreciate that I am riding a sentient being. Sometimes, of course, it’s just a weird rock. I can spare the two seconds while we figure that out.
From my understanding it sounds like he does this because he is nervous or unsure of the situation rather than being disobedient or sour in any way. I wouldn’t punish him for this behavior but encourage with positive reinforcement.
My mare has her mare moments, often at creek crossings if she is alone or when first heading out on the trail. She likes to stop, and turn her head around as a way to convince me to go back to the barn or go the other way. It’s not out of nervousness, she does it to be a brat. But I also like to build her confidence if we are in a situation where she does actually get nervous and she responds well to positive reinforcement.
If she stops and stands still and is attentively look at something I let her stand until I see some form of relaxation. Then, I encourage her with my leg to go forward and when she does I reward her and tell her good girl and scratch her on the neck. It’s when she turns around on her own I discipline her by kicking her forward and/or spanking her.
it is not a long time. a minute or two. No, i don’t feel he is being disobedient, but is actually nervous.
I’d wait him out for a bit. I think as you develop a relationship, that will dwindle.
If he were just being a pain in the butt, it’d be different. I react differently with a willing horse who is nervous than a butthead who is trying to get his or her way.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;8752940]
It makes no sense to work on anything when he is good, bc he does what i ask when he is good. No, we can’t ride in the pasture or the loose horses will be a danger to me. He is fine most of the time, he DOES listen most of the time. I did not want this to become a huge issue, and when i ask him forward and he is in that backing-up frame of mind, i did not want him to become even more upset and have this turn into a bigger issue for him. That is why i have not gone Postal on him. I have been asking him forward, and then if he gets worked up, i back off. He will usually move forward after some time. I never know when this will occur, or i would tell everyone, to stay back. We have some rides where he never does it, and other rides he can do it up to 2x. When i get angry at his behavior, he does not seem to handle that well. He gets more reactive. This is why i don’t want to start using the crop and freak him out more.[/QUOTE]
You are reinforcing the behavior you are trying to extinguish. Hope it all works out OK for you.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8755463]
You are reinforcing the behavior you are trying to extinguish. Hope it all works out OK for you.[/QUOTE]
Obviously, there are differing schools of thought. You just have to choose which type of rider/horse/relationship you want and proceed that way. I’ll just say I have really willing, happy, cooperative, easy, well behaved trail horses - the kind that will turn away from, rather than back towards, the trailer when given a choice. Works for me.
My horse occasionally backs up on the trail. He hasn’t done it in a long time, come to think of it. It was more prevalent when I first got him, but it’s never been a big issue, partly because I won’t make it one. My horse is honest and sane, so if he is worried about something I let him have a look. One one or two occasions he was taking a longer look than I liked, so I just asked my friends to go on ahead. When the other horses moved out he did too.
I think you have to know your horse. If he’s an honest soul who is just a bit worried about something then I think it’s best not to pressure him too much. Like Katyb said, I want a horse who is thinking for himself, so I’m not going to punish him for being cautious. I think as you and your horse grow more confident with each other the problem will go away. Putting pressure on top of fear will only make things worse.
[QUOTE=katyb;8755541]
Obviously, there are differing schools of thought. You just have to choose which type of rider/horse/relationship you want and proceed that way. I’ll just say I have really willing, happy, cooperative, easy, well behaved trail horses - the kind that will turn away from, rather than back towards, the trailer when given a choice. Works for me.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree - I choose to have a safe, responsive, humane and fun relationship. I had the exact same issue as OP a while back. I could have written her post. My wonderful mentor informed me that I didn’t have a spooking/nervous problem, I had a Go Forward problem. So we safely and humanely did Go Forward in the arena and go the horse to understand. Completely got rid of the backing up issue on the trail. Oh, and the backing up came with a “maybe I’ll rear” threat as well. It only ever happened on the trail.
I feel that you need to work a problem out in a very safe location, so you can push the horse a little bit out of it’s comfort zone, but then when you get the correct response, the horse is back in it’s comfort zone. And the lightbulb goes off (or on, which is it?). And sometimes you need a LOT of repetition.
There are too many uncontrolled things out on the trail, IMHO, to do much training in a safe manner. Some of this stuff takes time, and do your riding buddies really want to stand there while you train your horse?
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8758066]
Some of this stuff takes time, and do your riding buddies really want to stand there while you train your horse?[/QUOTE]
If they are your riding buddies they will…
I did some work with him on the trail today as far as asking him to move out faster. he was responding very well, and he really is trying. For my other horse, if he had backed up, i would not hesitate to use the crop or whatever to move him. This new horse is more of a sensitive soul, and i just don’t want to make him MORE anxious. i want to build his trust first. Normally, i don’t allow my horses to have an opinion. But This guy is very sweet, and he really does try hard most of the time. That is why it has been difficult to decide how to proceed.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8758066]
I totally agree - I choose to have a safe, responsive, humane and fun relationship. I had the exact same issue as OP a while back. I could have written her post. My wonderful mentor informed me that I didn’t have a spooking/nervous problem, I had a Go Forward problem. So we safely and humanely did Go Forward in the arena and go the horse to understand. Completely got rid of the backing up issue on the trail. Oh, and the backing up came with a “maybe I’ll rear” threat as well. It only ever happened on the trail.
I feel that you need to work a problem out in a very safe location, so you can push the horse a little bit out of it’s comfort zone, but then when you get the correct response, the horse is back in it’s comfort zone. And the lightbulb goes off (or on, which is it?). And sometimes you need a LOT of repetition.
There are too many uncontrolled things out on the trail, IMHO, to do much training in a safe manner. Some of this stuff takes time, and do your riding buddies really want to stand there while you train your horse?[/QUOTE]
I would never have been able to work on it with my horse in an arena, because you had to have that odd, scary whatever to get him to stop and look. We’re talking one thing in 15 miles. Some things can’t be duplicated in an arena, so you just have to deal with them as well and as safely as possible out in the real world.
So here’s what I learned when I was training dogs (retrievers). Always give the animal the benefit of the doubt. If you do that and the behavior improves you have done the right thing. If the behavior gets worse, the animal is taking advantage and you need to get a bit tougher. I have rarely been sorry that I work this way, but I sure have been sorry when I didn’t.
As I said above, I can’t remember the last time my horse did this, so obviously what I’m doing is working. Building trust was the answer for us, not punishment. That sounds kind of woo-woo, but there you have it.
When I bought my mare last year she didn’t have a good work ethic and she’d get very balky/rear/back up in the arena when she thought she was done working, or when she didn’t want to go to the far end of the arena. It carried over to trail riding where she’d stop in the middle of the trail and start backing up/rearing when she saw something “scary” or when I tried to ride her past a trail that went back to the trailers.
Frustrating because the rest of the time she was quite adamant about being in the lead. I did A LOT of uncontrollable backing on narrow trails until she got behind a friend who was braver, and I spent A TON of time, as in MILES, of getting off and leading her.
For me, it’s a confidence issue as well as an obedience issue. Being disrespectful of my leg and backing down a narrow trail is dangerous. She needs to respect my leadership, even in a situation she isn’t sure of.
When I was on narrow trails I got off and led her.
When I was on wide trails I used my whip.
If she tried to stop and turn down a trail that went back to the trailer I got off, lunged her, and ground drove her in the other direction.
She is much better this year both on the trail and at home, both in her bravery, and in her obedience and trust in my leg when I tell her she has to go past the terrifying blade of grass.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;8752940]
It makes no sense to work on anything when he is good, bc he does what i ask when he is good. No, we can’t ride in the pasture or the loose horses will be a danger to me. He is fine most of the time, he DOES listen most of the time. I did not want this to become a huge issue, and when i ask him forward and he is in that backing-up frame of mind, i did not want him to become even more upset and have this turn into a bigger issue for him. That is why i have not gone Postal on him. I have been asking him forward, and then if he gets worked up, i back off. He will usually move forward after some time. I never know when this will occur, or i would tell everyone, to stay back. We have some rides where he never does it, and other rides he can do it up to 2x. When i get angry at his behavior, he does not seem to handle that well. He gets more reactive. This is why i don’t want to start using the crop and freak him out more.[/QUOTE]
I am afraid that because you first ask him to move forward, then when he resists you stop asking ( or back off) you are training him to not respond to your requests.
Are you riding alone? If you are with someone else have them take the lead when your horse starts to balk. My mare can get just like your horse. She hasn’t experienced much trail wise. I send my daughter ahead of us and it keeps my horse focused on going forward as we work at getting over, past, across whatever is concerning her. She would go into reverse as well.
As time has progressed I can now 80% of the time get through it without having my daughter take the lead. As my mares confidence in me and herself increases she gets bolder.
I really think this started because he didn’t have confidence in you as the leader and now things have kind of gotten out of hand. I bet he did this with his previous owner too at times. A professional might be helpful.
i don’t ride alone, but some of the horses at the farm are also on the green side, so we will end up with 2 or more wussies at the same time, b/c he one horse won’t walk forward, so to the other horses-there MUST be a reason.
He is the type to shut down with too much punishment. so i am trying to get him to trust me first and then down the road if he is doing it to be stubborn, i don’t mind smacking him with the crop.
i get what you are saying, but whenever i ask him to move forward he is still doing it in places where he is not nervous. He is not being ‘bad’ but is scared. if i beat him when he is scared, i am afraid he’ll learn that the issue is much worse than it really is. So i am trying to get him to trust me.
There are so many possibilities between “back off” and “beat him.”
If you want to change your approach (I sense that you do not), perhaps you can find a good professional to help. A well-referenced cowboy trainer would be perfect.
.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;8759795]
i get what you are saying, but whenever i ask him to move forward he is still doing it in places where he is not nervous. He is not being ‘bad’ but is scared. if i beat him when he is scared, i am afraid he’ll learn that the issue is much worse than it really is. So i am trying to get him to trust me.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Huntin’ Pony;8759838]There are so many possibilities between “back off” and “beat him.”
If you want to change your approach (I sense that you do not), perhaps you can find a good professional to help. A well-referenced cowboy trainer would be perfect.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I thought about Nezzy’s horse yesterday when I had an issue with the horse I was riding. This horse hates deep mud, and there is one difficult stream crossing that really bothers him. It’s narrow and steep with large boulders, and you have to step into some mud before the stream. So he stops and doesn’t want to step down. So I bump bump bump my heels on his sides. He rocks forward, I stop bumping, rub his neck and say good boy. Start bumping again. He steps left, right, rocks back, still bumping. Bumping slightly harder now, he takes one step forward. I stop bumping as soon as I feel the forward movement, good boy, rub neck. Let him rest a few seconds. Bumping again. He backs up a few steps, still bumping, finally he takes 2 steps forward. Good boy, let him rest a few seconds. Start bumping again, finally he goes in.
My friend I ride with said why didn’t you just smack him, and I replied (like Nezzy) that he was anxious about the mud and I did not want him to get more upset. When the horse is in a situation where it’s anxious, I want it to stop and listen to me, and not get scared, bolt, spook etc.
I feel that when a horse gets scared and upset, and the rider smacks it, that just reinforces the anxiety - the horse is anxious because something is scary, and bam, something bad happens (the smack).
I do feel that training at home, in a safe place, absolutely transfers to places away from home. The more you do at home and the better your horse gets, the fewer problems you have away from home, and the quicker you can fix them when they do pop up.
