backing up when unsure

[Nezzy]

i got a new horse in February. He is 13. He was never trained for arena work, which is fine by me, bc all i do is trail ride. He is very good about most everything, he never bucks,( so far-Knock wood), and he is usually very willing. But there are occasions when i ask him to move forward and if he is unsure, he will back up. i have used a crop on his butt, that does not work, he gets more anxious, and i have asked him more strongly by wearing spurs and just giving him a bit more of a nudge to move ahead. he does not go forward until he is ready.

I don’t want to get too aggresive with him, bc he is so good, i don’t want to make the problem worse. If another horse is with us and moves forward, all is fine, but i want him to respond to me if I am in the lead and he is unsure. it’s never a real reason when he gets nervous, and he can handle Bikers, and hikers with no spooking. it’s the ‘unknown’ spook in the woods that will sometimes cause him to stop and then to back up.

Any suggestions to give him more confidence and to get him to stop the backing up?

[saddleup]

My newest horse did this, also. In occasionally harrowing places, like on the side of a small ravine while on a single track and rocky trail. Not a place to have a confrontation, but it was pretty scary when he would do it. He only did it the first few rides I took him on, and three years later he hasn’t done it since. I think as we got to know each other and he figured out his new job he just became more confident and trusting, and stopped. I was thinking of selling him right away, but I’m glad we worked it out. I gradually worked up to longer and more challenging rides, and he’s been stellar since that first season. I guess my advice is “lots of wet saddle blankets”, and hopefully that will fix it.

[katyb]

Does he back when you push him forward, or just on his own? My Friesian Sport Horse will back if pushed hard when something concerns him, but if allowed to just stop and look, he will move forward once he has processed whatever it is (weird rock, who knows?). His breeder says this is a Friesian thing. This horse is as solid and safe as they come, so I just let him have his time. At first, it was a bit long, but we are now down to maybe 2 seconds at something really scary, so that is fine by me. I have had him 2 1/2 years now, but he hadn’t been out much in his life before me. It took him 2-3 months to relax into his new job.

[airhorse]

Adding any pressure while he is already backing will only make him back faster. Just keep asking softly for forward until he stops or goes forward. Don’t make a big deal of it and be ready to ride backwards for a bit. I suppose if you really wanted to get creative, set yourself up with his hind end facing a corner in the arena and let that pressure bounce him forward if he backs into it.

I find that getting them to move a front foot laterally and then walking off can help until they get more confident. Getting bigger and adding spurs and a crop will only prove to him that moving forward is a scary thing. Find a spot to go and make a big deal of it when you get there, even if it is only a few feet away. Your idea to go, his idea of comfort when he gets there.

Don’t make him wrong for backing, in his mind he’s doing the right thing.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Nezzy;8750322]
i got a new horse in February. He is 13. He was never trained for arena work, which is fine by me, bc all i do is trail ride. He is very good about most everything, he never bucks,( so far-Knock wood), and he is usually very willing. But there are occasions when i ask him to move forward and if he is unsure, he will back up. i have used a crop on his butt, that does not work, he gets more anxious, and i have asked him more strongly by wearing spurs and just giving him a bit more of a nudge to move ahead. he does not go forward until he is ready.

I don’t want to get too aggresive with him, bc he is so good, i don’t want to make the problem worse. If another horse is with us and moves forward, all is fine, but i want him to respond to me if I am in the lead and he is unsure. it’s never a real reason when he gets nervous, and he can handle Bikers, and hikers with no spooking. it’s the ‘unknown’ spook in the woods that will sometimes cause him to stop and then to back up.

Any suggestions to give him more confidence and to get him to stop the backing up?[/QUOTE]

Lots of desensitizing to spooky stuff in the ring, and groundwork focusing on go forward. I’m not really sure what you mean by “the unknown spook in the woods.” There really is no such thing as “trained for arena work,” the horse should respond to cues no matter where it is. I use the arena for basic training and to work out problems because it is a safe, controlled environment. It’s hard to train on the trail because of space limitations, footing and all the uncontrolled stuff out there. If you don’t have a ring, maybe use a small paddock or the corner of a pasture.

I never hit a horse that spooks. It just increases anxiety.

If a horse is out on the trail and unsure about a situation, you don’t want to increase his anxiety by hitting him. I usually just thump my heels on the horses’s side until it goes forward.

[Nezzy]

where i board we do not have an arena. it is a trail barn. we are next to a state park with 18+ miles of trails. If he is unsure about something, he thinks he sees, ( could be a squirrel or nothing at all) he will stop and if i ask him to move forward he will respond by backing up. When i try to correct him and ask him to move forward, he does not. He is NOT spooky with things he can see. You could throw a cardboard box at him and he would not spook. It is the unknown that gets him upset. I have never BEAT him or JABBED him with my spurs. He is asked to go forward as if he was standing still and i was ready to move. I never hurt him when asking him forward.

[katyb]

I think giving him a minute to look is your best response at this point. Now, if he is still standing in 15 minutes, you’ll have to rethink that plan.

[Nezzy]

oh no, it never takes that long. I guess letting him learn that everything is ok when i tell him, is something he needs to figure out on his own. He is really a great horse for everything else. i can be patient with him and hope he figures out that I would never ask him to do anything unsafe.

[cloudy18]

I’d let him look for several seconds, gently ask him to go forward and reward with a rub on the neck. You might have to initially let him look for awhile so that he’s more ready to go forward when you ask.

[anon38350891]

I would try asking him to turn in a small circle. I don’t think rewarding his unrequested stop with a long rest is a good idea. Plus that rest allows him to concentrate 100% on whatever caught his eye, and they can get more wound up in that situation. If you can get his feet moving, you can get his mind off whatever is distracting him. Then ease forward when you sense he is listening to you.

[Nezzy]

i don’t always have room to turn him in a circle. We are on trails in the state park. Sometimes i can, other times i cannot.

[SCM1959]

[QUOTE=Nezzy;8751921]
i don’t always have room to turn him in a circle. We are on trails in the state park. Sometimes i can, other times i cannot.[/QUOTE]

My horse does not back up, per se, but he will sometimes balk when I ask him to go somewhere – a turn he does not want to take, over a bridge, etc. My teacher tells me to just get forward movement in any direction and then move him the way I want him to go. I have to be sure I am sitting BACK, squeezing with my legs and saying forward with my seat. I sometimes have to add in some kicks to get him to go.

Turning in a circle on a trail is very often not possible and sometimes dangerous.

SCM1959

[Huntin_Pony]

When no room to circle, find a way to direct his feet within the space available. For instance, displace his haunches right and/or left, move his shoulders right and/or left, make it clear to him that you are directing his feet all the time, even if backwards.

When he stops his feet, let him have a minute to think then try moving the feet again with a forward intention. Rinse and repeat as needed.

By the way, it would be a great idea to work on this control of his feet BEFORE you have a problem. So, as you go down the trail, think about moving each of his feet when the trail is clear and you can “play.” Probably not a good idea when there are obstacles because it’s his job to navigate those of course.

[Nezzy]

As stated, when HE decides to do this, i have no way to get him to move forward. He ignores the crop and my spurs, even tho he knows what i am asking. I cannot have him continue to back up into others, so i stop signalling if he does this, And give him a minute, or i get off and walk him forward, but he is pretty tall for me, and even tho i can get on from the ground, it’s not that easy.

[airhorse]

[QUOTE=Nezzy;8752302]
I cannot have him continue to back up into others, so i stop signalling if he does this, And give him a minute, [/QUOTE]

And this is rewarding him for backing.

[Huntin_Pony]

Air horse is correct.

You should be able to do a one-rein stop and keep him from backing into people. If he moves his haunches away from the bend, fine. Wait for him to fully stop before releasing his head/neck. Again, the idea is to say “okay move your feet, but you have to move them where I say.”

If he resumes backing, one-rein stop again. (In case there’s a doubt, I am not suggesting anything abrupt. Just bend him around and keep him there until he stops.) The idea is that the only way for him to go is forward.

He may not be headed up the trail when he stops if he spun a little. In that case I would bend him the other way and wait for his haunches to line up then offer forward as the best option. If he takes even one step forward with one foot, praise the heck out of him.

[Palm_Beach]

OP, you are getting some good advice. There is no magic solution, and it appears that the horse is being rewarded for his improper response and for ignoring your cue to move forward.

Is there pasture space for you to work with your horse? When working on Go Forward, it’s good for the horse to have lots of different choices to try out, with Forward being the correct response. You actually WANT the horse to make some wrong choices so the horse learns that backing up is not the correct response to the Go Forward cue. But you need to be in an area where he can do it safely, which may not be the situation out on the trail.

And it doesn’t always matter why he is stopping and backing up, he still needs to listen to you.

[LilyandBaron]

Just be careful - if he’s truly fearful of something and you push too hard (doesn’t sound like you are), he could rear. I would try to at least not have him back up - not necessarily go forward, but not allow backward - with just enough pressure and a big opening rein if needed if he starts to pop up. And ease up on that pressure anytime he looks or behaves as though he wants to go forward. Praise him whenever he’s facing his fear. And don’t punish him but don’t let him get too far away from it. But I think patience and consistent exposure to things will get him over it better and more confidently than getting after him too much.

[Nezzy]

It makes no sense to work on anything when he is good, bc he does what i ask when he is good. No, we can’t ride in the pasture or the loose horses will be a danger to me. He is fine most of the time, he DOES listen most of the time. I did not want this to become a huge issue, and when i ask him forward and he is in that backing-up frame of mind, i did not want him to become even more upset and have this turn into a bigger issue for him. That is why i have not gone Postal on him. I have been asking him forward, and then if he gets worked up, i back off. He will usually move forward after some time. I never know when this will occur, or i would tell everyone, to stay back. We have some rides where he never does it, and other rides he can do it up to 2x. When i get angry at his behavior, he does not seem to handle that well. He gets more reactive. This is why i don’t want to start using the crop and freak him out more.

[Huntin_Pony]

“As stated, when HE decides to do this, i have no way to get him to move forward.”

This is what you need to work on “when he is good.” You need more tools in your toolkit, NONE of which should be in the category of getting angry or freaking out your horse.

The two posts I made above contain a number of suggestions of things to do when he is being good. For example, moving his feet in a controlled manner one at a time, going forward, backward and from a halt. Can you do this reliably?

If so, but it doesn’t work when he balks, then perhaps you need a pro to help you. If not, then there really are productive things you can do without stressing you or your horse. Note that I never suggested using a crop or spurs or getting rough in any way. I agree that would not help you.

Best of luck to you and your horse.