Would you buy a 7 y/o horse that didn’t do well on the flexions? The vet felt a twitch in the horse’s back leg and immediately said that there’s maybe shivers. Also she felt a teeny bit of stiffness in the other hock and said maybe osteoarthritis. I don’t know this vet well (I don’t know any vets in the area well) and it seemed kinda sketchy how she couldn’t 100% diagnose anything. The horse is so quiet and can jump the moon - I have this gut feeling that I’m making a mistake if I let him go, but what if he does actually have serious future lameness issues? Is that what it sounds like?
There are plenty of threads on COTH that talk about horses with poor flexions and crappy X-rays, but jump around sound for years. Then there are those with great flexions, great X-rays, and can’t stay sound worth anything.
A lot depends on how the vet would classify the flexion results. What does it mean that the horse “didn’t do well?” There are degrees of observations on flexions. It isn’t a black and white issue. Would the vet call the results +1/2, +1, +2, …?
In my opinion, the flexions are only part of the story. It’s an easy screening test to identify areas to look into further. If you really like the horse but it is maybe a +1/2 or +1 somewhere in the flexions, that would indicate areas to do more X-Rays. However, unless you are super serious about the horse, then I don’t think it makes sense to do a ton of diagnostics. That would be the owners job to figure out what is going on. There’s no sense in spending upwards of $800-$1000 unless the horse is a serious candidate.
I’d also find out if the horse is on any kind of maintenance. I wouldn’t think so at age 7, but you never know. It is worth asking about this.
Some vets are super cautious and are going to mention all sorts of small things to protect themselves. In fact, I know some vets who don’t do PPE’s at all because it can be a very emotional thing for buyers and sellers and they don’t want to get caught up in it.
There are so many nice horses on the market that if you aren’t certain, then just wait. If it was meant to be the horse will still be there when you are ready to make a move. If you wait and someone else buys it, well then there is something better around the corner.
[QUOTE=EquusPrincess;8280286]
Would you buy a 7 y/o horse that didn’t do well on the flexions? The vet felt a twitch in the horse’s back leg and immediately said that there’s maybe shivers. Also she felt a teeny bit of stiffness in the other hock and said maybe osteoarthritis. I don’t know this vet well (I don’t know any vets in the area well) and it seemed kinda sketchy how she couldn’t 100% diagnose anything. The horse is so quiet and can jump the moon - I have this gut feeling that I’m making a mistake if I let him go, but what if he does actually have serious future lameness issues? Is that what it sounds like?[/QUOTE]
Did you x-ray? I must admit I’m pretty cautious about flexions myself and personally would pass. If you really like the horse though it might be worth finding a vet who you feel confident in and reassessing.
If you don’t know the vet (or at least the vet’s reputation) well, it’s really hard to know. Diagnosing shivers from a twitch? That seems a bit suss to me, but…
Where’s you regular vet? If you do radiographs, who do you trust to read them? On the flip side, is the horse sound (and, at 7, maintenance-free) doing what you want it to do at this time? Horses are walking disasters, and there are no guarantees about future usefulness. I once had a horse that vetted so cleanly it was hard to believe, who torsion-coliced a year after I bought him. We never did figure out why… (He went on to live for 8 more years, when we had to lay him down because of seizures).
I just don’t think that I’d necessarily say no to a horse I really liked that was already performing at the level I was intending just because of an odd flexion.
Are there radiographs to go along with the less than great flexions? I would be a little miffed if a vet was “diagnosing” things based on the quality of the flexions instead of saying something like mild, moderate, or severe (example, my horse flexes a mild to moderate on his hind limb flexions, and a moderate on his right front. There are also rads to go along with that moderate right front). If there are not rads, and you want more real info, get rads. otherwise, I think I’d be hesitant to pass him up, too.
[QUOTE=EquusPrincess;8280286]
Would you buy a 7 y/o horse that didn’t do well on the flexions? The vet felt a twitch in the horse’s back leg and immediately said that there’s maybe shivers. Also she felt a teeny bit of stiffness in the other hock and said maybe osteoarthritis. I don’t know this vet well (I don’t know any vets in the area well) and it seemed kinda sketchy how she couldn’t 100% diagnose anything. The horse is so quiet and can jump the moon - I have this gut feeling that I’m making a mistake if I let him go, but what if he does actually have serious future lameness issues? Is that what it sounds like?[/QUOTE]
(Bolding mine).
I do not know what kind of diagnostics you had done besides flexions, but I will caution you that most vets will not be able to 100% diagnose a horse on a PPE alone (If they can 100% diagnose at all since medicine is not an exact science). For example, did you authorize hock x-rays to see if there is any visible sign of arthritis?
IMO, flexions can give you an idea of where there is a problem so that you can do further diagnostics (rads, etc.). I don’t put much weight on how a horse flexes, especially since every vet does flexions differently in terms of how much pressure, how long they hold it, and things like that.
I’m skeptical about what your vet said - and it doesn’t sound like the horse’s flexions were even BAD - a tiny bit of stiffness? A twitch? Just curious, is this vet young and maybe just out of school?
If your interpretation of the resulst is accurate that was pretty useless. Maybe the written report is more informative? x-rays would be indicated if you are still interested.
I would have another vet look at him. And/or get someone to do flexions and video the tests so your vet can look at them. Do you know how many bad steps the horse took after he jogged off?
I agree that flexions are not diagnostic by themselves but are indications to look at that area more carefully.
Osteoarthritis should show up on x-rays, but shivers? I have been involved in horses for over 50 years and I have yet to meet a horse with shivers.
My horse (8 y/o at the time) failed two PPEs before I got to him - flexed bad in the right hind. Our vet came out, he was 2/5 lame at the trot and 3/5 positive flexion. We thought, best case maybe a bone chip, worst case who knows…
In the end, right hind fetlock had arthritic changes, and ultrasound showed nothing soft tissue related. Maintenance is injecting the fetlock 2x a year. Since I am in the camp of injecting performance horses as preventative maintenance anyway, this was no big deal to me.
Long story short, get x-rays and potentially ultrasounds done on the positive joints. That information is much more useful than positive flexions.
Also, said horse is now even more sound than when I bought him, due to said injections and a strategic feed and supplement regimen.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8280477]
I would have another vet look at him. And/or get someone to do flexions and video the tests so your vet can look at them. Do you know how many bad steps the horse took after he jogged off?
I agree that flexions are not diagnostic by themselves but are indications to look at that area more carefully.
Osteoarthritis should show up on x-rays, but shivers? I have been involved in horses for over 50 years and I have yet to meet a horse with shivers.[/QUOTE]
I’ve been involved with horses since I was a kid (now 45) and I’ve only met one with shivers, but it doesn’t mean there aren’t more out there. Not sure about what the vet thought she felt to suspect that however.
How many times did the vet flex him? Flex enough times and any horse is going to have SOME little twitch for a few steps
I’ve been around a couple horses with shivers and it doesn’t seem to affect them at all under saddle. It can make them a PITA to shoe behind and the handlers need to just handle with care if its severe but usually they are good to ride. Lots of successful horses have had it.
But really, if the vet held it up long enough and in a stress position to flex and only felt one twinge? the horse doesn’t have severe shivers. Go hold his hind leg up for a long time and see if he’s OK with that. Read up on shivers first. I would want to see more than one twinge before I decided the horse had shivers at all.
Then do some X rays to check the hocks and I’d not give these flexions even the honor of being called “bad.”
If you are THAT interested in the horse, I would do more testing; starting with x-rays and build from there. It will give you a better idea of what you are dealing with, or if there is even a problem at all. Horses can be a teeny bit stiff and have nothing wrong with them.
It’s actually quite easy to make a sound horse appear lame with aggressive flexions. As others have said, they are not typically diagnostic in and of themselves, but rather can point you in a direction where more investigation can be useful.
I would be more interested in the horse’s immediate past history. Has he been in consistent work doing the sort of job you want to buy him for? If so, I would probably not allow a minor result on a flexion to deter me from a purchase (but I would xray that area to make sure there was nothing super concerning to worry about.)
Also remember that these days, with the advanced tools we have (like digital xray that allows you to zoom in and really look at minute details) it is very unlikely that you will ever find a horse without a single flaw… the elusive “clean” or “perfect” PPE. And because of liability concerns, most veterinarians will hedge a bit when reporting on these exams, for fear that the clients will turn around and sue them later if the horse ends up having a problem. I grew up in a time when a vet would actually PASS a horse on a PPE (or not) and give an opinion on its (physical) suitability for the job at hand. That simply doesn’t happen anymore; like a home inspection, you just get a laundry list of findings and have to make up your own mind. With a vet you don’t know well, this is obviously much harder.
This is why I go back to the practical test of whether or not the horse has successfully been doing the job I will want the horse to do for me. If it has, and there is nothing particularly alarming on the PPE, I generally write the check.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8280431]
IMO, flexions can give you an idea of where there is a problem so that you can do further diagnostics (rads, etc.). I don’t put much weight on how a horse flexes, especially since every vet does flexions differently in terms of how much pressure, how long they hold it, and things like that.
I’m skeptical about what your vet said - and it doesn’t sound like the horse’s flexions were even BAD - a tiny bit of stiffness? A twitch? Just curious, is this vet young and maybe just out of school?[/QUOTE]
This is my gut reaction. I also think you need to think about what you want to do with the horse and if the horse has the temperament for the job.
For example: if a young horse has bad feet, well, OK I know a farrier can help with that, but if I want him to do hunters and needs time on the lunge and time undersaddle every show day, his feet are going to get pounded and that may lead more problems down the line.
And for whatever it’s worth, I can only think of a small handful of young horses that showed nuttin’ after flexions. My own looked drunk and lame on two of his feet because he was a lazy turd and wouldn’t pick up his feet in a coordinated fashion to jog. Grabbed a whip and it was a different story. Flexions are just weird. They can be useful, but sometimes I think people put way too much weight into them.
If the horse is currently working at the level you would like to be at with no maintenance, then I’m inclined to say trust your gut. Or at the very least have a vet you trust examine his x-rays and give you an opinion.
I don’t put as much stock in PPEs as I used to. A friend of mine was selling a very nice warmblood gelding that had a past injury which had been rehabbed with full disclosure to all potential buyers and at a significant discount. Four different interested parties had very thorough PPEs completed and not a single vet had the same findings–each one was different! One vet didn’t want to give him her “okay” because his fetlock angles weren’t textbook (the same vet who also said he had some of the cleanest x-rays she had every seen)…
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8280431]
IMO, flexions can give you an idea of where there is a problem so that you can do further diagnostics (rads, etc.). I don’t put much weight on how a horse flexes, especially since every vet does flexions differently in terms of how much pressure, how long they hold it, and things like that.[/QUOTE]
I share this view - it would be the rare situation where I would make a decision just off the flexions as they can be so subjective and vary by vet. If you really like the horse, and it sounds like you do, I would do further diagnostics and use the flexions to guide you on what to work up. For example, I vetted a horse that flexed off in a front leg that was a little too upright, and before we did any baseline diagnostics on the hind end, I had my vet work up that leg and stopped when we found issues in a radiograph and the ultrasound. So, if you really like the horse, do further diagnostics with a good sport horse/lameness vet and see what’s there because it could be something, it could be nothing, and you won’t know unless you run it to ground.
Honestly, its going to be hard to find a horse that doesn’t vet with something. If the horse is priced right, doing the job you want it to do (and has been for more than a month or two) it would probably be worth looking into it more. I’ve only seen one horse do so horrible in its flexions that the vet recommended to pass. The rest of them have either been great to iffy, but not so bad that we haven’t moved onto x-rays.
