Bad footing - who is liable?

[fordtraktor]

As a lawyer very familiar with torts (but this is not legal advice, just commentary), it’s really impossible to know given what you have presented, and it is probably a grey area where it could go either way, depending on how good your lawyer is and how the judge feels about negligence.

Not worth a lawsuit over the vet bills, IMO.

But if you want the barn to keep the arena open, I wouldn’t recommend it. If there is not money to fix the issue, the BO is very likely to just close off the arena as a place to ride. They might if they even get a whiff people think they are on the hook.

There are some solutions, like boarders banding together to fix it with permission, a 50/50 split, or a board raise and a contract that requires boarders to stay a period of time to ensure the cost is recouped. Most boarders at low-mid facilities don’t want to do this, though.

[SusanO]

This is my assumption after reading the first post - the base of the arena was never done correctly and needs to be replaced. Ka-ching!!! Probably a clay base that gets slick when wet? A base of compressed screenings that was done correctly wouldn’t get slippery. Maybe hard if there was insufficient cushion from the footing on top. Anyway - this will take an expensive fix to get corrected. Footing scraped off and base redone. Most likely will never happen because it is expensive and requires a lot of upfront costs for the barn owner. I have no idea what profit the barn owner derives from the property ( if any) but unlikely to pay for this job. Unless they are riding in a sport that requires good footing and that doesn’t sound like the case.

If this condition is known and there are other places to ride in I doubt that you have any legal recourse. Just complaining without offering solutions won’t make things change unless there are other options for boarding and a mass exodus. And I don’t see a cheap solution for this problem either. I know it sucks that good footing is $$$$$.

[S1969]

@Janet

Actually, it is usually a car that is “injured”.

Yeah but when there is an insurance claim on the car, there are no lawyers fees. It’s just value.

I was sued because my daughter had an accident and the passenger of the other vehicle was injured. They sued me (the insured), and my insurance company negotiated and settled. I didn’t pay their legal bills, my insurance company did.

But, there were no legal bills for either of the vehicles.

[Janet]

@S1969

Yeah but when there is an insurance claim on the car, there are no lawyers fees. It’s just value.

Sometimes there are.

Back in the late 90s my brother in law was in financial difficulties and “forgot” to pay his car insurance bill, and was in a car accident at a traffic light (the other car ran into the side of his car. Both drivers insisted they had a green light). When they learned that he had no insurance, the other insurance company sued him personally for a large amount of money. We had to hire a lawyer to defend him (he couldn’t afford one).

Luckily their lawyer was incompetent, AND the other driver changed her story multiple times, and the case was dismissed. But the insurance company DID have legal fees, and so did we.

If his insurance had been paid up, it is likely the 2 insurance companies would have settled, but it wasn’t, so they sued.

[S1969]

I’m not sure this is a good example. An uninsured driver being sued is a very different scenario than suing an insured property owner for damages/injury to an animal.

[FjordBCRF]

I had to sue my own auto insurance company. Ex husband got hit by an uninsured driver. While it was low speed/low impact, he had a bulging disc from the event and racked up more in medical bills than our insurance thought there should be. It was a huge PITA. Worth it though, but still not something I wish anyone to have to go through.

I assume our insurance company then sued the uninsured driver but I don’t know for sure.

Insurance is such a racket.

[S1969]

@FjordBCRF

Insurance is such a racket.

I think the bigger issue is the lack of health care. If you didn’t have to pay for medical bills out of pocket there would be no need to sue.

The dope that was hurt in my daughter’s accident wasn’t wearing a seatbelt, had no insurance and needed surgery. He walked away from the accident, but had lingering issues. I couldn’t really even feel sorry for him – he probably had no job and $100K in debt that would be impossible to pay and ruin his life, forever.

She made a mistake, he made a mistake, but it was mainly an issue of lack of affordable healthcare.

[candyappy]

@KBC

Sometimes my mind takes hold of a notion and won’t leave it alone. Asking the question is not a precursor to action, or in action, but I just want to know dammit.

I do that but not in a situation like this because to me it seems crystal clear. I am glad we are not all the same in our thinking . Makes for an interesting world.

Then what is the answer?

[FjordBCRF]

Totally agree, the state of healthcare in the US is just abysmal. That’s a whole other conversation

[Scribbler]

I think you can say that property maintenance is the responsibility of the landlord generally unless otherwise specified in a lease contract.

That does not mean that there is a clear answer in advance as to whether the property owner would be held legally liable in a law suit for any given accident on their property.

That’s going to depend on many details about that particular situation as evaluated by judge and jury, including what waivers the parties signed and what actions the injured party took to mitigate the risk.

It’s also going to depend on whether the injured party can afford a lawyer. Human injury especially car accidents ends up in law suits because the insurance companies sue each other to shift the cost of payouts. This also happens for medical insurance companies.

Say you are an average ammie with a horse worth under $10,000. Or under $5000. You are going to have to pay your lawyer pretty much the replacement value of your horse to argue that the footing caused you $2000 in vet bills and loss of use for a month. There’s no big insurance company lawyers prancing around behind you eager to try to recover costs from the barn owner.

That’s why “liability” is such a red herring for most everyday situations.

[RedHorses]

If you know about a long term hazard that everyone knows about (and talks about those times that the other horses slipped and fell) and then run into it, the fault is yours. By staying at the barn long term, and continuing to pay to stay at the barn, the boarders are accepting the hazard as part of being at that barn.

If the hazard appeared a week ago and you hadn’t heard about it yet, and it hadn’t been flagged, or blocked off, or had some warning posted where you would see it… then you might have a liability case.

It seems too many liability cases are just someone refusing to take responsibility for their own safety.

[lorilu]

Look at your contract. I’ll bet it contains a waiver of responsibility.

[NoSuchPerson]

@FjordBCRF

I had to sue my own auto insurance company

Been there, done that. I got an attorney after months of the insurance company stalling and then denying the claim. Attorney sent a letter and in less than a week, he called and said he had received a check for the full amount of the claim. And that made me even madder than them denying the claim in the first place.

[Equibrit]

This is always an interesting read;

https://www.animallaw.info/cases/topic/equine-liability

[CindyCRNA]

yup.

[CindyCRNA]

You see ice on the sidewalk but you slip and fall at a business, the business is paying.

[Training_Cupid]

Personal injury is different from the hypothetical presented about a horse suffering injury.

[Scribbler]

@CindyCRNA

You see ice on the sidewalk but you slip and fall at a business, the business is paying.

Where I live, business owners are required by law specifically to clear ice and snow from the sidewalk, parking lots, and private roads or driveways used by employees and customers. If they fail to do so they can be fined. Therefore the presence of ice on the sidewalk outside a business is clear negligence. That said, most such injury suits are sponsored by health insurance companies seeking to recoup costs. Our basic medical insurance here in Canada is run by the provinces and does not tend to sue for costs. But if you have extended private health, especially if you are trying to access a very costly long term disability policy after a life changing incident, or if it’s Workmen’s Compensation or car insurance (both are run by the provinces) there may well be suits shifting blame especially when there is liability insurance.

Years ago a friend suffered a serious life altering head injury when a flower box fell off the side of the housing co-op they lived in. There was a substantial payout but the extended health insurance provider forced my friend to sue his building and the tenant of the suite with the box. Ever understood the situation and there were no hard feelings.

[Equibrit]

But - what would happen if the flower box had fallen on your friend’s dog (in her charge) and injured him ?
Throw in a sign warning about said flower boxes, and you may have a comparable situation

[candyappy]

@CindyCRNA

You see ice on the sidewalk but you slip and fall at a business, the business is paying.

If I see ice no way I am walking on it! ( btdt on ice I didn’t see here at home). Plus a business like that where customers are coming down their side walk should be liable and putting out ice melt or whatever…