Bad hay eater - do I look into hindgut ulcers or something else?

[SugarCubes]

I have a quarter horse who has been a horrible hay eater for the past two years or so. Prior to that, I boarded so I’m not sure if he’s always been that way or not. At first, I thought it was my hay even though my other horse devoured it. So, I switched suppliers and saw no change in him. Tried someone else, no change. I’ve now tried 4 suppliers, tried several different types and cuttings of hay and still can’t get him to eat more. Hay is lovely, other horses love it. I’ve fed in nets, on the ground, in a corner feeder in his stall, etc…no difference. On a whim the other day, I just picked up a Standlee Alfalfa/Grass compressed bale and he will actually eat a whole flake of that!

Diet:
He gets 3lbs TC Senior and 1lb Gro N Win twice daily. Free choice hay. I weigh his hay daily and find he generally only eats between 5-10lbs. Horse weighs 1200lbs and is in great weight which eases my worries a bit.

Turnout:
He’s out in a field all day, but the grass is nonexistent at this point. I throw hay and he refuses to touch it and instead prefers to nibble on dead grass roots. He’s in at night, but has 24/7 access to a large paddock. In the summer, he’s out on grass for several hours a day but then largely ignores his hay when he’s in at night.

Symptoms:

1. Hates being touched or groomed. He’s actually an affectionate, sweet horse and loves cuddles and pats on his head and neck. Touching him anywhere else results in pinned ears.
2. Loose manure. Some days it’s loosely formed balls, others it’s cow-patty like. Frequently expels liquid with gas requiring almost daily butt baths
3. Girthy

What I’ve tried:

1. Vet diagnosed him with kissing spines a few years ago and attributed the sensitivity to touch to that, put him on a month of robaxin and previcox and thought that would help resolve the sensitivity but there was no change.
2. We scoped him for ulcers, and his belly looked great
3. Have tried numerous supplements, SmartGut, DigestMore, Probiotics, U-Gard and saw no change
4. He gets regular chiropractic and myofascial release, gets 2x/yearly fecals.
5. Yearly dental work, he’s 17 but teeth are in great shape

I’ve read numerous threads on hindgut ulcers and realize he doesn’t show many common symptoms - but I’m at a loss as to where to look next. He’s happy to work and is naturally forward. He has a shiny, healthy coat and a nice topline.

Where would you go from here? Could he just be picky with hay? Do I suck it up and pay $17/bale for the Standlee that he’s actually eating? Do we do the test for hindgut ulcers? WWYD Coth?!

[mlb722]

I had an older mare that was like this. She would eat some standlee hay, but picked everything else. Occasionally ate chopped hay.

i tried sucrafalate, it did help with the eating. Rantidine and ulcerguard did nothing.

[Texarkana]

He certainly sounds like a candidate for hindgut ulcers. Succeed used to do a “money back guarantee” deal with veterinary intervention. If they still do it, it may be worth pursing. I have mixed opinions on Succeed, but I have seen it help at times. I’m surprised the vet hasn’t suggested misoprostol. I’ve also had good luck trialing with Equishure on horses with suspected hind gut ulcers. A slurry of coconut oil & baking soda is supposed to create the same effect as Equishure, if you want to go that route.

Second observation: for clarification, is the 3lb TC Sr. + 1lb GNW the total divided into two meals, or does he get those amounts AM & PM to total 6lbs + 2lbs of feed? If it is the latter situation, you may be overdoing it on the nutrition, especially selenium. Slight, chronic overdoses of selenium can cause some funny, nondescript “not quite right” symptoms in horses. Phosphorus is another nutrient that can cause strange NQR symptoms when overfed, even when it’s in approprate balance with calcium.

An intolerance or allergy to an ingredient in either of the feed products is another possibility, which could be irritating his gut. I cared for one stock-bred horse in particular who had chronic issues, including pain/irritability, gas, and loose feces, when on any processed feed. He was like a different animal when maintained on nothing but a vit/min supplement in some soaked hay cubes and hay.

He may be getting more forage than you think, though, especially if his weight is good. TC Sr can be fed as a forage replacement, and can give the horse a similar full hindgut sensation. You’ve seen his field and I haven’t, but his nubs of dead grass might be more substantial than assumed.

I’m a crazy person who does suck it up and buy Standlee bales for my picky eater. And they are generally more expensive in my area!

[China_Doll]

there is a reason he likes the standlee hay and not the others. He knows something you don’t. May be able to detect an odor in hay. Also suceed has a test for ulcers that is inexpensive and accurate. It is for hind and stomache ulcers. I would like to see a picture of him. Ideally it would be nice if he ate

[tpup]

Have you had his teeth checked? The Standlee compressed bales are typically very soft. So wondering if something is up with his teeth? You might try taking him off all grain but give him a ration balancer and some soaked alf cubes. I love the Legends Carbcare balancer pellet. I don’t feed my ulcer-prone OTTB any grain - just the ration balancer and Legends Omega Plus for fat. It could be the feed, or something in it not agreeing with him. If his belly hurts he will be picky about hay. My OTTB is like that. He is being treated now for ulcers and did not start eating alot more hay until 3 weeks into Gastroguard treatment.

Also, FWIW, I have a pony that cannot tolerate ANY triple crown feeds. Not sure why. But tried a few and same result. So I stopped using it. I’ve always been a big fan of the TC feeds but they just don’t agree with this pony.

[luvmyhackney]

Standlee compressed bales are horse crack. I give my pony a flake when we have weather changes.

@tpup Did you take my pony? He won’t touch TC products at all. Legends is about all he eats.

[Dutchmare433]

Well, my thoughts would be gastric ulcers, teeth, and then hind gut ulcers. Since you’ve ruled out the first two, it probably wouldn’t hurt to try Sucralfate, Succeed, or something else for hind gut ulcers.

My other suggestions would be to try soaked or steamed hay to see if softening your hay up would help. Soaked would obviously be cheaper and more realistic, unless you know someone with a hay steamer?

Lastly, addressing the touchiness, but not necessarily the hay eating, would be checking for Lyme.

[tpup]

@luvmyhackney

Standlee compressed bales are horse crack. I give my pony a flake when we have weather changes.

@tpup Did you take my pony? He won’t touch TC products at all. Legends is about all he eats.

Ha maybe! This is a 10h Shetland. When I give him TC anything, he stocks up, legs stiffen…walks like a little Frankenstein…and pees like CRAZY in his stall. It’s the strangest thing. Our feed store feeding specialist is stumped. Vet is too and said something in there is not agreeing w/him. He gets a handful of McCauley’s Alam so I can throw his supps and vitamin in, and that’s it.

[SugarCubes]

Tex - To clarify, he gets 6lbs TC SR and 2lbs Gro N Win split into two feedings. Interesting about the Se…we are deficient in our area, however. Maybe I’ll cut out the Gro N Win?

China - I’ve tried so many different types and cuttings of hay and my other horse, and friend’s horses who use the same hay guy I use, devour it. Picture below!

Tpup - I’ve also had him on EQ8 which made him really hot. I’ve tried just feeding him Gro N Win and soaked alfalfa cubes, but he dropped weight even after I added Ultimate Finish so we started back up with the TC Sr. He’s done well on the TC Sr for years.

From what you all have said, it sounds like it’s definitely worth testing for hindgut ulcers first. Depending on how that comes back, I can switch up his diet if necessary. Yesterday he only ate around 10lbs of hay (including 2, 3lb flakes of Standlee) but he is definitely in good weight. I actually had to switch out for a bigger girth (and he’s body clipped!) so maybe the TC Sr really is just making him that full?!

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[SugarCubes]

@Dutchmare433

Well, my thoughts would be gastric ulcers, teeth, and then hind gut ulcers. Since you’ve ruled out the first two, it probably wouldn’t hurt to try Sucralfate, Succeed, or something else for hind gut ulcers.

My other suggestions would be to try soaked or steamed hay to see if softening your hay up would help. Soaked would obviously be cheaper and more realistic, unless you know someone with a hay steamer?

Lastly, addressing the touchiness, but not necessarily the hay eating, would be checking for Lyme.

Ah yes! I always forget about Lyme with touchiness…I’ll have that tested too. I think it’s really rare in my area, but worth checking anyway! My trainer actually has a steamer at her barn, maybe I can steam a couple of flakes and see if he likes it better. As far as teeth, he had an abscessed tooth a couple of years ago and eats funny ever since then, he kind of chews with his head twisted to the side. I’ve had the vet and dentist tell me his teeth look fine and they think it’s a habit from when the tooth was bothering him. But, maybe something, somewhere, does still bother him?

[Texarkana]

@SugarCubes Definitely try reducing the GNW or eliminating it completely. You can replaced the lost calories with more TC Sr if necessary.

While I have no problem combining a ration balancer + fortified feed, 6lbs of TC Sr is the “recommended” amount which should provide adequate nutrition. 2lbs of GNW is on the high end of recommended amount for a horse his size in light to moderate work. Combined, he’s getting a lot of “stuff,” in excess of the nutritional demands of even the hardest working of horses. I’ve made the mistake myself with some of my hard, picky horses and it can cause some weird side effects that are difficult to pinpoint.

[Dressagelvr]

Sounds like there are multiple issues at play now.

Bases on your last post, I’d suggest that you have a different dentist (not vet) look at those teeth. I’m always amazed at how many vets can miss a variety of dental conditions.

He should chew normally and if he can’t, he probably needs dental work.

[Dutchmare433]

@SugarCubes

Ah yes! I always forget about Lyme with touchiness…I’ll have that tested too. I think it’s really rare in my area, but worth checking anyway! My trainer actually has a steamer at her barn, maybe I can steam a couple of flakes and see if he likes it better. As far as teeth, he had an abscessed tooth a couple of years ago and eats funny ever since then, he kind of chews with his head twisted to the side. I’ve had the vet and dentist tell me his teeth look fine and they think it’s a habit from when the tooth was bothering him. But, maybe something, somewhere, does still bother him?

FWIW, I had a horse who could be a really picky eater. She started being a little weird at times in the contact, had both my vet and non-vet dentist check her, they both said teeth were fine. I moved and had a new vet who was really into sport horse medicine but also teeth and how they affected the sport horse. He said her mouth was a bit of a mess and did a big overhaul and then a touch up once every 6 weeks for a few more months. After the 2nd float, she was pretty much golden, back to eating whatever hay we gave her, and she gained a TON of weight/muscle…to the point where she had to get cut back to the fat kid diet.

So I think some vets/dentists are better than others, or perhaps more perfectionist? And I think some horses just need that little bit more fine tuning to be comfy, especially if your guy has had problems.