Badminton 2017 Cross-country

[JP60]

@vineyridge

I don’t think the FEI was talking about 4* courses.

Really?

The aim of the designer is to provide a suitable test for the level of competition without exposing horses and riders to a higher risk than what is strictly necessary to produce the right test for that level.
• Fences and questions should never be above the particular standard of competition or justified by the use of alternatives or options.
• Horses and riders should be encouraged and have their confidence built, not destroyed.
• It must be recognized that our sport is about achieving a standard, not about pushing the standard above what it should be. This includes measuring the length of the courses fairly and reasonably.
• Any/all questions must be fair. It is not acceptable to try to catch horses out using unfair distances or by trying to be too clever or over complicated.

So somehow you believe at 4* they just ignore this part? I don’t think Derek does. I think CMP does and we’ll see with this guy but I think this is trying to prove one’s self course, not a “necessary to produce the right test for that level” course. We’ll see Saturday and let us both hope no horse gets hurt.

[Rallycairn]

“I just told them to trust their instincts … you can’t really make a plan for this course anyway!” is the gist of what I got. When perhaps some specific instructions might have helped us, you know, COMPLETE a team in Rio. Also sounded like he was already laying the groundwork for passing the buck.

He just doesn’t give the impression to me that he’s putting much into prep. And his demeanor seemed too casual, to a point of not seeming invested in things. Again, hope I’m wrong about his coaching. I certainly am very fan girly about our riders, and I want them to do stunningly well.

[vineyridge]

@JP60

Really?

So somehow you believe at 4* they just ignore this part? I don’t think Derek does. I think CMP does and we’ll see with this guy but I think this is trying to prove one’s self course, not a “necessary to produce the right test for that level” course. We’ll see Saturday and let us both hope no horse gets hurt.

I think that at 4*s and Games, the only thing the FEI cares about is whether humans and horses get killed or severely injured. Unless they are going to get kicked out of the Olympic Games.

[Jealoushe]

So both the O Connors are there coaching? Jeesh is there any other Americans that can coach at this level?

[Hilary]

I did not think he was cavalier. What he was saying was that this course is not something you can have a solid "I will ride this in 3 strides’ sort of plan, that you must be able to react in the moment to what your horse is doing, and be there to help. That, to me, is a pretty serious assessment that this is a very difficult course. He came ‘this’ close to saying that the Rolex course was easier because you could make plans and if you followed them, things would work out. But what I heard was that this is a serious test because you cannot plan down to the footfall. You must be ready for any and everything.

[OverandOnward]

I didn’t think he was unprofessional at all. He’s been out on course, clearly, not preparing for TV face time. (High of 59F? That is such a different climate for the time of year than where I live! It’s already early summer here. LOL )

I found his remarks cogent, but he probably didn’t know he would be doing that interview ahead of time, was just being accommodating. Some of what he says I am hearing in the context of past Badmintons, without that context being explained. I doubt he intended in any way that a rider would not have a plan. His point was just what a 4* ride is (and any ride, for that matter) – once you are out on course, the plan has to adapt for the actual ride as it is occurring. The horse is fresher or more backed off than anticipated, and often the approach to a jump looks rather differently from the height of the horse than it did from the height of the course walk. The ground changes, the way the light is falling, weather changes, etc. & so on. That’s so much a part of the reality of riding a big hairy course that it’s at the top of the coach’s mind.

I did find it interesting that he said he wanted the riders to make their own plans first, and then they would “go back and forth”. Since Rio he and the team have publicly discussed who they have changed the coaching format to be more in line with the way riders today handle their competitive venues. The riders are experienced professionals themselves, not starry-eyed kids. Riders have long-established relationships with their own coaches, and years of experience with their horses. By comparison the team coach is new to the party. So rather than dictating to riders, he is taking the role of lending his own extensive experience at the highest-level team events and providing a fresh perspective. I think it is a smart way to go.

As far as assigning blame afterwards … well, it’s a useless exercise but unfortunately it seems to be deeply embedded in human nature. But a coach who is more of a guiding presence than a giver of specific instructions will be in a different position than one who is acting as the director of everyone’s ride.

[JP60]

@vineyridge

I think that at 4*s and Games, the only thing the FEI cares about is whether humans and horses get killed or severely injured. Unless they are going to get kicked out of the Olympic Games.

In that I can agree with you. One would hope the Course Designer may think differently.

[Marigold]

@JP60

With Rolex, it was a heart pounding but enjoyable viewing. With this? I hope no one gets seriously hurt.

I’m quite in agreement with you here. Rolex this year, and for a few years now, has been absolutely incredible to watch. Combinations caught out on glace-offs and drive-bys because riders aren’t prepared or properly explaining things to their horses, not horses getting caught in trappy situations or punished for being genuine. Lots of rider punishment, while building the confidence of the horses with forward distances and honest questions.

I didn’t realize the FEI had said explicitly that “as a general philosophy the numbers of finishers is more important than the number of clear rounds” but Derek just embodies that beautifully. Lots of people come home, but lots of 20s and lots of time to keep xc as influential as it always has been.

@Jealoushe

So both the O Connors are there coaching? Jeesh is there any other Americans that can coach at this level?

To be fair, Kyle Carter was there last year (Libby Head) and did a PHENOMENAL job. So maybe they just need a Canadian to show them how it’s done

[Xctrygirl]

Sorry but this conversation is kind of ironic and humorous to me since I read Jimmy’s article on the post Rolex Xc thoughts. One of the biggest points he made was that we have become TOO structured with striding and how a course should ride when walking it and not enough ability to get 'er done or as others mentioned from the older videos, riding by the seat of your pants.

I have long admired the Badminton entrants for their ability to do just that. LOTS of English men and women set out of course with far less prodigious competition records than our riders and they fared well because of the long traditions in the foreign countries to just keep riding and get finished. I believe hunting helps with this, especially give what their territories include for jumps! I really do think we US riders tend to overthink a lot and if we had the wherewithal to just blink, and worry about getting over the damn fence, however you could, we’d be a lot more successful. I could see on the live feed last weekend more than a handful of riders who were confused that the striding at X fence didn’t work and sortof just got stuck in that mental thought while not helping the horse get the job done. I hardly ever see that happen to Euro riders.

~Emily

[WNT]

@Jealoushe

So both the O Connors are there coaching? Jeesh is there any other Americans that can coach at this level?

Well, both Kieffer and Burnett are riding Landmark/Mars-owned horses, and have a very long professional relationship with the O’Connors, and I’m sure Symansky does too given her Virginia roots. I believe Elisa Wallace has ridden extensively with them as well. I would honestly have been surprised to see anyone else coaching them.

[Rallycairn]

I don’t know, I just remember that article Lucinda did in H&H, wherein she went to interview MJ and thought she would find a trainer who encouraged independent thinking in horses and took a more instinctual/seat-of-the-pants approach, only to find that MJ was quite the opposite. And I think Jimmy also wrote something about MJ along the same lines, about MJ’s knowing every stride and line and option on a xc course – so while I get that maybe this is a new or something of a retro style course here at Badminton this year, and also that last week’s Rolex was said to ride a bit differently than it walked in places – I still question whether riders really should go out there without having a firm plan, though realizing they may have to be flexible if things don’t end up riding as they thought. (Also, even if it wasn’t his best ride, MJ still won on that perhaps slightly surprising Rolex.)

Lots of technicality is still a reality in this course and in other big courses of today, as O’Connor just said in the video. So again, I don’t think it’s wise to be quick to conclude that a plan can’t be formulated pretty firmly, especially for those technical questions.

I still see the interveiw as laying the groundwork for passing the buck onto the riders and for putting out a belief that ultimately no plan can be made for a course like this, and so of course he can’t be held accountable for results, or lack thereof.

To me, even with independent professional adults, there is still room for coaches to be coaches, not simply cheerleaders unwilling to offer directives. Like I said, I think some actual direction to our riders to take some options might have gotten us a respectable (though probably not stellar) finish at Rio rather than failing yet again to complete a team.

But I am thrilled to bits he came across better to others than he did to me, because he is making me cringe as our coach.

[Jealoushe]

@Rallycairn

I don’t know, I just remember that article Lucinda did in H&H, wherein she went to interview MJ and thought she would find a trainer who encouraged independent thinking in horses and took a more instinctual/seat-of-the-pants approach, only to find that MJ was quite the opposite. And I think Jimmy also wrote something about MJ along the same lines, about MJ’s knowing every stride and line and option on a xc course – so while I get that maybe this is a new or something of a retro style course here at Badminton this year, and also that last week’s Rolex was said to ride a bit differently than it walked in places – I still question whether riders really should go out there without having a firm plan, though realizing they may have to be flexible if things don’t end up riding as they thought. (Also, even if it wasn’t his best ride, MJ still won on that perhaps slightly surprising Rolex.)

Yes, and MJ also said he remembers every line, distance and championship course he has ridden. He even counts strides between long gallops. He is a man of accuracy which clearly works for him. Maybe it would work for other or maybe not. I feel like he is probably a bit of a genius in the manner of counting.

[WNT]

I can certainly see the importance of striding even the galloping stretches, as those are where seconds and placings can be lost even if all the obstacles are cleared.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@Rallycairn

To me, even with independent professional adults, there is still room for coaches to be coaches, not simply cheerleaders unwilling to offer directives. Like I said, I think some actual direction to our riders to take some options might have gotten us a respectable (though probably not stellar) finish at Rio rather than failing yet again to complete a team.

Remember, the US no longer has a coach but a “technical advisor”.

And since Badders is an individual competition, it’s fine for those independent professionals to make and execute their own plans with their own coaches - whoever they may be.

But! At team events, strategies for finishing a team come into play - if it’s the nation’s objective to finish a team. Frankly I am not sure the PTB in the US care about finishing a team anymore.

[skydy]

I didn’t have a problem with DOC’s words, but his gum chewing was appalling.

[Willesdon]

Having walked around the course this afternoon, there are many places where the rider will not be able to count strides and will certainly need to ride the horse underneath them and use ‘feel’. Yes, obviously the riders will need to have a plan - and plan B, and C and probably D as well. Many lines are really clever and demand accurate riding as glances off corners etc will be easy but most of the fences have black flag alternatives to allow fast-thinking riders to ride their horse as the situation demands.

The staircase at 5 is the first challenge and the horse should be listening closely as it demands control but the ground, fence profiles and position of decorative features have all been very carefully considered. From the top it looked fearsome but looking back up from the bottom it was possible to see a good straight line through. The rider can choose which A element to jump to set up the steps and skinny.

The Hildon water at 15 should prove fascinating as the direct line is very difficult with really angled narrow logs but at any point a quick thinking rider can change their plan and get out of trouble.

Similarly the corral at 19 was a real puzzle until one saw how the numbering allowed three different routes, depending on how the horse is running at this point. Not possible to micromanage this fence.
I think Saturday should be a good 4* test.

[Sannois]

@Hilary

I did not think he was cavalier. What he was saying was that this course is not something you can have a solid "I will ride this in 3 strides’ sort of plan, that you must be able to react in the moment to what your horse is doing, and be there to help. That, to me, is a pretty serious assessment that this is a very difficult course. He came ‘this’ close to saying that the Rolex course was easier because you could make plans and if you followed them, things would work out. But what I heard was that this is a serious test because you cannot plan down to the footfall. You must be ready for any and everything.

Exactly!!

[fordtraktor]

@Willesdon

Having walked around the course this afternoon, there are many places where the rider will not be able to count strides and will certainly need to ride the horse underneath them and use ‘feel’. Yes, obviously the riders will need to have a plan - and plan B, and C and probably D as well. Many lines are really clever and demand accurate riding as glances off corners etc will be easy but most of the fences have black flag alternatives to allow fast-thinking riders to ride their horse as the situation demands.

The staircase at 5 is the first challenge and the horse should be listening closely as it demands control but the ground, fence profiles and position of decorative features have all been very carefully considered. From the top it looked fearsome but looking back up from the bottom it was possible to see a good straight line through. The rider can choose which A element to jump to set up the steps and skinny.

The Hildon water at 15 should prove fascinating as the direct line is very difficult with really angled narrow logs but at any point a quick thinking rider can change their plan and get out of trouble.

Similarly the corral at 19 was a real puzzle until one saw how the numbering allowed three different routes, depending on how the horse is running at this point. Not possible to micromanage this fence.
I think Saturday should be a good 4* test.

thanks! I thought that water didn’t look a big deal in photos but I watched the overhead and it looks totally different and so hard. The angles are really extreme. I would say bulging to the right would be absolutely necessary. A more direct line seems incredibly challenging.

i also thought the gates were really vertical and don’t love them that late. I hope they are frangible.

my earlier sense from the photos than the first table over ditch (3 or 4?) would be difficult changed with the overhead. It is actually set back and rather Rampy with a clear line out front. Much more inviting than the photo looked.

The Corral looks like a hot mess. I will have to see what people do tomorrow as I couldn’t tell what was what except the second flagged parts look pretty darn angled. Maybe if you jump in one side and out the other it is easier (though of course less direct).

[vineyridge]

@Hilary

I did not think he was cavalier. What he was saying was that this course is not something you can have a solid "I will ride this in 3 strides’ sort of plan, that you must be able to react in the moment to what your horse is doing, and be there to help. That, to me, is a pretty serious assessment that this is a very difficult course. He came ‘this’ close to saying that the Rolex course was easier because you could make plans and if you followed them, things would work out. But what I heard was that this is a serious test because you cannot plan down to the footfall. You must be ready for any and everything.

And to me, that is what eventing should be about.

If a course leaves itself open to blueprints of rides, it’s too easy. It may be completely safe, but it isn’t a real test of horsemanship. I wouldn’t dare to critique a course or designer through, since there are so many different factors involved, and I don’t begin to understand them.

Seems to me that the riders should completely understand the fences, what they are asking, and how they SHOULD be negotiated safely for fastest time. Then put the course together as a whole with the terrain involved and figure how to manage the horse’s stamina. Then ride based on that knowledge; but don’t try and treat it as a blueprint because things happen, from weather to horse quirks, to sheer luck. Horses are, after all, independent beings and aren’t in on the planning, and they may have their own ideas about how to answer the questions. IMO, going in with knowledge, guidelines, and flexibility is far better than trying to follow a blueprint.

[frugalannie]

BING BING BING!! I think we have a winner in Viney’s post. And that, gentle readers, is the difference between your average 3* (perhaps 4*) and Badminton (aka Badders to my friend who has attended a couple of times). Of course, now that Viney is consulting with the FEI we may not be recipients of quite so many gems. Truly Viney, delighted the FEI reached out to you. Gives me hope for the organization and only confirms my esteem for you. Kick on!