Okay. As a disclaimer, I am a lowly adult amateur. I’m about to compete at the intro level with my 5 y/o, and only did BN on my old horse. So my opinion, I guess, should be taken with a grain of salt. And please forgive me if this has been addressed in earlier pages. But I just saw the XC was available on YouTube now. At the beginning, they talk a bit about the course and I noticed they had a set of corners with brush on the front and back. Now my question is … what is the purpose of that? I thought we taught horses to jump through brush? And now – SURPRISE! There’s a big giant solid part in the middle. Obviously I don’t even ride remotely close to the 4* level, so if somebody could provide some insight I would appreciate it!
There is a mindset, or seems to be, at the FEI that is part of their policy, to interfere with the human athletes as little as possible. In gray areas, they are not likely to intervene before or during the competition. The horse was definitely tired, but until the last jump, it was jumping. EW certainly deserved her yellow card, but would she have gotten one if she had finished? The guy last year at either Burghley or Badminton finished on an exhausted horse but didn’t get carded.
Not on topic, but when Mark Todd went to the whip after his last fence at the London Olympics, he broke an explicit FEI rule. Nothing happened to him that was made public.
I emailed the FEI to ask about why nosebands are not checked before xc with the bit and whip check, and the reply was that “if a rider had a question, they could ask the steward”. But that it was formally after because the FEI didn’t want to interfere with rider’s mind before the competition. I can’t figure out what the point is of checking after, since that phase is over. The guidance language talks about penalties if the rider doesn’t loosen the noseband, but why wouldn’t the rider do that when that phase is over? Maybe they are talking about the next phase, but there is no next phase after showjumping. So where are the teeth? With a check after, the whole bridle with noseband will be removed in short order anyway.
Seems to me that the tight noseband check is just window dressing. I’m not sure that a lot of FEI policy isn’t window dressing; in the rules just to placate the animal welfare lobby.
BTW, EW has run Rolex and Burghley on this horse and done well without fitness issues. I’m wondering if the horse might not have picked up some sort of low grade illness in the travel and time between arrival and competition. It’s not as if fitness for him has been a problem in the past. He is 17 or 18 though, but I’ve ridden a 21 year old TB hunting for six hours, and my horse did fine. I do know hunting fitness isn’t comparable to 4* fitness, but age isn’t necessarily the answer.
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Sad news:
It is with a very heavy heart that we share the news that today the heartbreaking decision was made to euthanize Shanghai Joe (Nugget). The severity of his injury was such that recovery was not possible, we had hoped that we would be able to nurse Nugget back from injury so he could enjoy retirement home in Australia and we are devastated that our hopes were not achievable.
Nugget was a homebred thoroughbred, he was bred, broken in, trained and campaigned by Shane. In his short ten years, he achieved much success including winning several CIC3* events and winning the CCI3* at Melbourne International. More remarkable than his success was his truly lovely nature and wonderful attitude to life and work, he quickly became a favourite with anyone that met him.
We will miss his cheeky face and gentle nature around our stable block. Big thanks to the team of veterinary surgeons that cared for Nugget over the past few days and also thank you to everyone who has offered messages of support and sent healing vibes in his direction. Thanks also to Lee Brydon and Bill Brydon who joint us in ownership of Nugget in 2015 and immediately became his fan club leaders, we are very sorry that our partnership with Nugget has ended this way.
It is truly sad that a freak accident has cut short the life of this special horse at just the beginning of his international career. It is a very sad time for Shane and the whole Bimbadeen Park Team. RIP Nugget, you will be missed. XO
Awful news. You can tell how much they loved him from the way that was written.
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How sad. This Badminton has produced one severe TBI and one dead horse. Eric Winter is probably distraught.
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I’m not sure if I dare post my thoughts on Badminton, but what the heck, I’m going to anyway.
firstly Shane Rose, my heartfelt condolences to him and his team. Tragic, but not the CD fault or the fault of the Hunt catchers - the horse bolted.
Emily, again tragic and I wish her a speedy recovery. I can’t comment much further as I haven’t seen the fall and don’t wish to, but she wasn’t some under prepared novice, she is a capable rider in her own right and at that level you have to be a first timer/second timer at least once!! The fence she fell at actually wasn’t that big in the grand scheme of 4*. so my gut says accident rather than poor CD.
onto the CD. I don’t think he got it particularly wrong. It was big. It required accurate riding, but the distances were there if the jockey got it tight. Only question mark was really coming out of the lake whereby I think EW has reflected it didn’t quite ride like he anticipated. The problems were scattered around the course and actually there were a number of European first timers who got round well, they rode with their heads.
In in relation to Elisa she screwed up, big time. She deserves some flack for this ‘but’ I don’t think she needs to be demonised. I don’t know if she has experienced a truely exhausted horse before, adrenaline does funny things to decision making and when she fell she looked pretty winded by her jacket. Not excuses for her behaviour but in no way, shape or form can this be compared to the Amy Tryon incidence which still leaves me feeling sick to the pit of my stomach.
Im in the UK. Do you know what, the Europeans aren’t quite as anti Badminton and pro Rolex as you guys are. Dare I say that some US riders appear to need molly coddling. I’m not sure I’d put a horse in the US, when push comes to shove the jockeys just aren’t top class on a XC course. There I said it, might make a hasty retreat now.
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You are quite nasty to say something like this. Think about it for a minute. You imply that Eric has taken responsibility for both accidents and if he hasn’t, he should. Neither is the fault of Eric. You don’t like the course when you walk it…withdraw. Nobody forced anyone to tack up on saturday morning. Yes, you can bitch and moan all you want about CD’s…and rightly so on some occasions. You don’t hang that shit on them. Oh, and there ain’t no co-effiect in my remark.
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I agree with this. I do worry, however, that this means the sport is going in a direction that is trickier and trickier for the horses and perhaps not fair. When truly great XC horses have faults for not understanding or even seeing the obstacle…I don’t know that I feel good about that. we complain about wanting XC to be less like showjumping solid fences – but at the same time, asking for more of the same because it gets palatable results…I am conflicted about it.
One thing I think Eric Winter MEANT to do was, as I think Zara said, have at least some the difficult combinations on a straight line that required a forward ride as the correct answer, and most were on a line. And I can see that, especially at the Head of the Lake, the second water, the giant brush corners, and the corral. Now he made it very forward and a lot of horses and riders found that hard. I think he pushed it too far and made esp at the Head of the Lake too long coming out of water – that seems like a clear error – the water took away from the ability to maintain the stride he wanted to see. But for the other fences – are the problems caused in part because the horses and riders are used to more of a show-jumping style approach to combinations? It seems like a line is more fair because if you are on the line, the horses can at least see the answer. Some of the questions required the “coffin canter” (like the corral and the gates and the second water depending on whether you did the three or four) and others really required a forward ride (corners and second water if you did the threes). Maybe Rolex and the Olympics-type twisty courses have taken that “straight line, forward and attack” mentality out of the horses and riders. I hope EW can find a way to tune down a few things while maintaining the basic idea that the straight forward ride is the right one.
Maybe it is time to be OK with XC being less influential, for the horses’ sake.
I agree with snoopy that neither really bad accident was the CD’s fault. Fence 3 was a standard big but “easy” fence that caused no other problems all day, and the bolting horse hit a building, not a fence. Both tragic, though.
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She got up, facing her horse, KNEW he was not being attended to by anyone but the jump judge, turned, and walked away from him. She didn’t ever touch him. She had her vest open and was pulling on it, then turned and walked away, taking it off while someone went running up to the horse. She didn’t look back to even make sure that person took him.
If you’re up, and walking, and you’re walking AWAY from your horse punching the ground because you’re so mad you didn’t complete, you’re not “winded from your vest” you’re pissed you failed. If you can walk away, you can walk towards your horse and make sure he’s okay after you beat him around half a 4* course.
Sorry, but it was inappropriate in many regards. And it was caught live on video for everyone to know.
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Exactly. What it said to me was that her horse was a vehicle and not a partner and it bothers me. She’s doing a clinic in my area and I had planned to sign up, but after seeing her behavior at Badminton I can’t get excited enough to pony up my money for that. Again, I’m glad she has since owned up to the mistake and that she’s vowed to not make it again.
Heartbroken at the news about Nugget this morning. I was so hoping he was salvageable. I lost a very nice horse to a broken shoulder as well. Tragic injury and godspeed to him. 
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i don’t disagree - and I wasn’t looking to excuse her behaviour. But she isn’t some child killing paedophile. She made a very poor choice in a situation under the influence of pressure and adrenaline. Boy I bet she has some regrets in the aftermath
What a huge loss for Shane. To have bred and trained that horse…ugh my heart breaks. I guess its time to update my old thread. Darn, I was hoping we could get through the season.
@headbrickwall I think the problem is that us here critizing EW is being seen as a witch hunt, vilifying, etc…yet what has really been said? That it was terrible, shouldn’t have happened, that there is no excuse - I mean she had at LEAST 3 minutes to decide. But I digress…the point I’m trying to make is that no one here is attacking her. We are discussing a TRUE event that happened, we all saw it. No one has called her names, shamed her, nothing. Disappointed and disgusted, yes, out to ruin her…no.
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You can’t have you cake and eat it too. “Rightly so on some occasions”? What occasions? Many feel this was one occasion and Vineridge points out two facts, a critically injured rider and a dead horse. These didn’t happen in the wild, they happened on a cross country course designed by a person. At the least I would hope the CD would be concerned about the number of horse falls, one injured (I’ll drop the runaway though it relates).
If the Eventing community does not hold someone to a standard that puts the welfare of the horse before anything else then we tacitly accept death and maiming as par for the course.
Then we have this fragment of a thought
Dare I say that some US riders appear to need molly coddling. I’m not sure I’d put a horse in the US, when push comes to shove the jockeys just aren’t top class on a XC course.
Really, those poor US riders, some whom I’ve been happy to rack over the coals for gaps in their training need Molly Coddling? Good Grief. At the moment we have two completed 4* in 2017, one where no horse fell at a fence, no rider seriously injured yet the ability to complete clear was much harder, and the leaderboard changed. The other where we had 7 horse falls, one death, one injured, multiple rider falls with one being critical and not much of a shake up of the top riders. You have the thought that you’d not put a horse in the US when it would seem the chance of having my horse not coming back is higher in the UK. Eventing is a sport, not a survivalist game unless you like watching horse falls. I hear there is a great reel filled with them.
Perhaps the reason Europeans are less critical of Badder and Burghley is because they don’t put the welfare of the horse above all else. At the moment who really runs the FEI, folks based in the US or folks based in Europe. The FEI, per remarks here seems pretty much okay with people getting away with almost anything from dragging horses over jumps, finishing with blood in the mouth, over tight equipment all because they don’t want to “disturb the competitor”. Bullshit. Pulling a rider off a course because the horse is tired does not break the concentration, it ends it and thank god, because the rider won’t (Right EW?) You got the wrong tightness before going out then either you knew it and shame on you or you take the moment to fix it. You got visual blood in the mouth on course you pull that horse over and let the professional rider figure out how to get their head back on if allowed to continue.
Molly coddling…poppycock.
If the FEI does nothing, if people maintain an attitude that “What’s your problem, this is Eventing”, let’s us ask the age old question, how many horses need to die to effect change for at the moment, we’re racking the numbers up.
One of the better suggestions had been to reduce the number of technicals while increasing the distance to put the emphasis on actual endurance, not cross country show jumping. Perhaps when there is a critical injury or death the CD and the course needs to be reviewed. I heard a few times that putting two vertical gates back to back on a forward riding course is not good. We almost had two rotationals there.
At the moment I don’t have a lot of respect for our US Professional riders. Mainly that they don’t show up with prepared horses at premiere events and the ones we venerate look more and more like their going through the motions, not to excel, but to do just enough. However, they go out there and ride, they take their lumps and as a whole, US Eventing seems perhaps one step closer to understanding and caring about the horse, overall, then what I read and get from folks in the UK. Dare I say.
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I have to say - from living in the UK and Ireland this is %100 incorrect. The best horsemanship in the world is in Europe from what I have seen. Along with the best riding, and horses.
The difference is the the riders in the UK, know when a horse is not capable and move on from it. In the US, they continue to try with these horses because they are syndicated and although the horse has fallen several times, they continue to press on. They also know when a training program isn’t working, and clean house. You never see the same riders on the team year after year. You have to EARN funding there. To get funding in North America you just have to know the right people.
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I hate to laugh at this…but I can’t not because you’re such a cheeky lad snoopy :lol: :lol:
Weeeeellllll…That might be a little disingenuous. There has been some of that, but I’d agree, not to a point where it gets ugly.
That which I find fascinating, we vilify Elisa Wallace for her actions that led to a dramatic horse fall, we hold her accountable for her decisions, yet…ah yet…folks here almost defend a Course Designer who didn’t just put one horse in harm’s way, he put seven. He made decisions and a statement like “Well the rider can choose to not run” is about the lamest rational or defense of a CD I could hear. A dutch rider did just that, pulled out and some made fun of him. Imagine a rider showing up to Badder, walking that course and saying ‘nope’, not going to put my horse through that hell. How many would say ‘go show ol chap (or lady)’. How many would try to understand the why or how many would say, even under the breath ‘just can’t cut it’.
I don’t expect a perfect 4* cross country. There are random things that can happen, but overall, I do expect a CD to honor what is written right into the guidelines, maximize completions and always consider the welfare of the horse first. Elisa made one bad decision for all the world to see and she’s shamed for a long time (if not for life), but I say that Eric made multiple bad decisions and he is venerated by many for honoring the “tradition” of Badminton. Elisa cannot hide, but it would seem Eric can. He hides behind the FEI, the riders, and tradition.
Elisa can show us she’s learned, but she only puts one horse in harm’s way to do so. Eric would have to show us by putting many horses in harm’s way such that at the end, they all walk away. Which is scarier to consider.
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;n9744745
Here is a link to a blog post that I thought was very insightful (the blogger is a COTH member). Those who follow this blogger - who is a regular ole ammy eventer who is as big of an eventing fangirl as any on earth - know that she is a bold, game eventer, the “shut up and ride” kind. But here is her take on this year’s Badminton … and I thought her point about the hanging knees was especially worth noting as a sign of the toll the course was taking on the horses.
https://the900facebookpony.com/2017/…t-for-badders/[/QUOTE]
That’s a really excellent blog post which I think sums up what many of us feel about the extremes of upper level course design and unfairness to the horses. Call that Mollycoddling if you wish but taking a line from occupational safety and health risk assessement, zero incidents should be the goal. Or zero serious incidents. Stops, refusals and tumbles being acceptable. Rotational falls resulting from trappy and tricky ground lines and unfair questions, not. If you’re okay with killing and maiming a few along the way, I think that’s f*cked up.
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I won’t flame anyone who says our riders aren’t top class on xc because the results in recent years, by and large, bear that out.
But as I’m sure is evident from my comments on this thread, I think the big issue is systemic – like Jealoushe, I think the high performance selection and training program (such as it is) is clearly not working but there appears to be little impetus to change.
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I’ll defer to your viewpoint on that aspect, but perhaps I was being more generic. I listened to Zara, read others from the UK and the sense I get is that they can accept putting a horse in harm’s way more so than we might here. The Eventing world saw two clear examples in 2017 of how to design a course and from UK/EU folks is a look down upon Derek’s while elevating Eric’s as “it’s tradition”.
Individually I won’t question the care and compassion folks may have for a horse, but it does not completely cover a sense that they as a whole they dare to do it bigger, badder, harder…as a sport…than I am comfortable with. They look at 7 horse falls and shrug their shoulders “thats’ Badders”. Me…not so much indifference. I’ll leave it at that for that is just my personal opinion and I have no direct experience from living across the pond.
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Eric did not “produce” a dead horse and a TBI. Holding someone “to a standard” is quite different from blaming (or the perception of it) someone for those two incidents at Badminton last weekend. I am quite sure Eric, and everyone involved with Badminton, did not huddle together in a darkened corner and come up with a course designed to maim or kill a horse and or rider. Get real. Honestly, some of you need some tin foil hats.
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