I’ve spent the past 10 years building my own house and with some help and a bit of luck it will finally be complete by the spring of 2015. By August of 2016, I will be (temporarily) debt free and want to expand my 7-acre homestead to include a mortise & tenon, timber frame, bank barn. I have been contemplating this for some time, but value your input and experience. The function of the barn will be: (1) to protect a sedan, a sub-compact utility tractor (JD 2305), and either a full-size pickup or a horse-drawn “carriage” from the elements; (2) to house two horses and 5-10 small livestock; and (3) to store a year’s worth of feed (mostly hay / some grain) and bedding for the animals. I believe that a 24’x36’ bank barn would suit my purposes. The cellar level would contain four, 12’x12’ stalls with an enclosed center aisle. The main level would essentially be a 3-car garage with a 2"x6" tongue & groove pine floor, supported by 2"x12" beams at 12" on center. The loft would be over the outer bays with a 4’ wide bridge connecting them. Twin ladders would run from the cellar level all the way to the lofts, with trapdoors on each level. I’d like a hay carrier and trolley to move hay from the main level to the lofts and hay chutes to drop the hay from the loft to the cellar level. With only 4 acres of pasture and being I live in a cold climate, realistically, I’m going to need on the order of 750 bales of hay (1 bale per horse, or 5 small animals, per day times 180 days). Optimally, the horses would be dappled Percherons for riding and to pull the carriage. Realistically, I will likely end up with less expensive horses (16 HH). Floor-to-Floor height will not exceed 10’; otherwise the ramp to the main level will be too steep (i.e. >3:12). This means the stall height will be close to 9’. With all barns, particularly bank barns, drainage is of paramount importance. A French drain system combined with underfloor drains will direct water down the side if the knoll upon which the barn will be situated. Ventilation is another critical factor, with ammonia being the prime concern. The roof will have one functional, 72" square cupola, each of which might contain powered exhaust fans to ensure a good draft (too few animals to generate enough body heat to rely on the “chimney effect”). Fresh air will be drawn in through exterior windows on the cellar level and up through barred openings in the floor of the main level. I believe that floor-level vents in the stalls are neither necessary nor beneficial. Each 18"h x30"w window will be barred on the inside, with a wooden shutter on the outside. The cellar aisleway will open to the southeast via twin 6’ sliding doors. The sidewalls will have three windows each and there will be two windows on the southeast side (8 total in the cellar). On the inside, there will be 4, floor-to-ceiling box stalls (two on each side of the aisle) with 2’x4’ barred opening to the aisle and the adjacent stall. Floors in the cellar will be compacted stone dust without mats; the aisle might be concrete pavers. Recessed CFLs will be spaced 4’ on center and will be adequately protected from damage. There will be a single, frost-proof water hydrant along the wall of the aisle. No heat will be provided. At the rear of the aisle will be an enclosed 6’x12’ closet for tack and tools. A day’s worth of feed/bedding will be stored along the sides of the aisle. There will be no Dutch doors and the only exit will be via the aisle doors (no direct exterior egress). The cellar walls will be full-height, reinforced concrete, with a cobblestone veneer on the exterior. The upper levels will be clad in southern yellow pine, painted French royal blue with red trim and a yellow fleur-de-lys trio on each door (like the flag of Anjou). The roof will be ribbed, hunter green metal. The ramp on the bank side will be paved and connect directly to the full depth, circular aspahlt driveway, which will have a radius of 35’. Those are my thoughts, what advice do you have for me?
I always thought the animals were on the main floor and the tractors on the ground floor underneath. I don’t know how I would feel about the machines overhead the animals, and the reinforecements you would need for that level would be more expensive that way. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
I have to take that back. I decided not to erase it but own my ignorance, in case anyone cares to discuss the particulars a bout it. I guess the animals should be on the ground floor, for the bedding and drainage and all. Interesting. I love bank barns, but haven’t really seen one in use. Just gorgeous, though. Can’t wait to hear more about your build.
[QUOTE=Anjou;7762604]
I’ve spent the past 10 years building my own house and with some help and a bit of luck it will finally be complete by the spring of 2015. By August of 2016, I will be (temporarily) debt free and want to expand my 7-acre homestead to include a mortise & tenon, timber frame, bank barn. I have been contemplating this for some time, but value your input and experience.
The function of the barn will be: (1) to protect a sedan, a sub-compact utility tractor (JD 2305), and either a full-size pickup or a horse-drawn “carriage” from the elements; (2) to house two horses and 5-10 small livestock; and (3) to store a year’s worth of feed (mostly hay / some grain) and bedding for the animals. I believe that a 24’x36’ bank barn would suit my purposes.
The cellar level would contain four, 12’x12’ stalls with an enclosed center aisle. The main level would essentially be a 3-car garage with a 2"x6" tongue & groove pine floor, supported by 2"x12" beams at 12" on center.
The loft would be over the outer bays with a 4’ wide bridge connecting them.
Twin ladders would run from the cellar level all the way to the lofts, with trapdoors on each level. I’d like a hay carrier and trolley to move hay from the main level to the lofts and hay chutes to drop the hay from the loft to the cellar level.
With only 4 acres of pasture and being I live in a cold climate, realistically, I’m going to need on the order of 750 bales of hay (1 bale per horse, or 5 small animals, per day times 180 days).
Optimally, the horses would be dappled Percherons for riding and to pull the carriage.
Realistically, I will likely end up with less expensive horses (16 HH). Floor-to-
Floor height will not exceed 10’; otherwise the ramp to the main level will be too steep (i.e. >3:12). This means the stall height will be close to 9’.
With all barns, particularly bank barns, drainage is of paramount importance.
A French drain system combined with underfloor drains will direct water down the side if the knoll upon which the barn will be situated.
Ventilation is another critical factor, with ammonia being the prime concern. The roof will have one functional, 72" square cupola, each of which might contain powered exhaust fans to ensure a good draft (too few animals to generate enough body heat to rely on the “chimney effect”).
Fresh air will be drawn in through exterior windows on the cellar level and up through barred openings in the floor of the main level.
I believe that floor-level vents in the stalls are neither necessary nor beneficial.
Each 18"h x30"w window will be barred on the inside, with a wooden shutter on the outside.
The cellar aisleway will open to the southeast via twin 6’ sliding doors. The sidewalls will have three windows each and there will be two windows on the southeast side (8 total in the cellar).
On the inside, there will be 4, floor-to-ceiling box stalls (two on each side of the aisle) with 2’x4’ barred opening to the aisle and the adjacent stall.
Floors in the cellar will be compacted stone dust without mats; the aisle might be concrete pavers.
Recessed CFLs will be spaced 4’ on center and will be adequately protected from damage.
There will be a single, frost-proof water hydrant along the wall of the aisle. No heat will be provided.
At the rear of the aisle will be an enclosed 6’x12’ closet for tack and tools.
A day’s worth of feed/bedding will be stored along the sides of the aisle.
There will be no Dutch doors and the only exit will be via the aisle doors (no direct exterior egress).
The cellar walls will be full-height, reinforced concrete, with a cobblestone veneer on the exterior.
The upper levels will be clad in southern yellow pine, painted French royal blue with red trim and a yellow fleur-de-lys trio on each door (like the flag of Anjou). The roof will be ribbed, hunter green metal.
The ramp on the bank side will be paved and connect directly to the full depth, circular aspahlt driveway, which will have a radius of 35’.
Those are my thoughts, what advice do you have for me?[/QUOTE]
My thoughts?
How about that for making that post a bit more legible?
Hope you don’t mind.
Talk to your insurance co. Tractors and other machinery do not go in the same building as livestock/feed. To much risk of fire caused by hot engines!
I want to add that I own a bank barn and I love it. Hay, bedding, and tack room are on the main floor with 6 large stalls (4 12 x 10 on one side and 2 12 x 20 on the side next to the bank) with a center isle on the ground floor. I have a seperate building for the machinery.
[QUOTE=DressageFancy;7763734]
Talk to your insurance co. Tractors and other machinery do not go in the same building as livestock/feed. To much risk of fire caused by hot engines!
I want to add that I own a bank barn and I love it. Hay, bedding, and tack room are on the main floor with 6 large stalls (4 12 x 10 on one side and 2 12 x 20 on the side next to the bank) with a center isle on the ground floor. I have a seperate building for the machinery.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the insurance company and the codes inspector could be insurmountable problems. Some state building codes prohibit the use of wooden floors under automobiles because of the potential for fire and yet wooden garage floors are common in New England, even today. I spoke to one Yankee barnmaker and he said he designs and builds garages with wooden floors all the time without problem, as has been done for centuries. I certainly know many farmers that store their tractors in their barns with their hay and livestock.
[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;7763638]
I always thought the animals were on the main floor and the tractors on the ground floor underneath. I don’t know how I would feel about the machines overhead the animals, and the reinforecements you would need for that level would be more expensive that way. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
I have to take that back. I decided not to erase it but own my ignorance, in case anyone cares to discuss the particulars a bout it. I guess the animals should be on the ground floor, for the bedding and drainage and all. Interesting. I love bank barns, but haven’t really seen one in use. Just gorgeous, though. Can’t wait to hear more about your build.[/QUOTE]
The site characteristics and needs of the owner dictate how the barn is laid out. In New England barns, you are correct – the horses would be on the main level, where there is better ventilation and less dampness; the cellar level would be for manure collection in wagons or manure spreaders; the loft, of course, has always been for feed storage because of its insulative value. Here in Pennsylvania, the main level, with it’s massive sliding doors on both ends, naturally morphed into an optimal place to store machinery after hand threshing was no longer done. In my case, I have very limited space on the knoll of a steep hill. These factors are exactly why multi-level barns were developed. Because the top of the knoll slopes, a 3:12 ramp up from the adjacent drive will allow me to easily park my vehicles on the main level, but owing to snowy winter weather, I really don’t want to drive down the slope to park in the cellar.
One consideration (and this is a long-term issue that may not affect YOU much) is that, over time, as you drive machinery into the main floor of a bank barn and stop, that forward motion is transferred into the barn. Eventually, it will make the barn start to lean away from the bank.
My dad’s been fixing barns longer than I’ve been alive, and this is something he’s fixed in old barns by running cables through the floor joists/beams, installing turnbuckles, and burying deadmen (concrete anchors) in the bank. Then tightening the turnbuckles to pull the barn back into position. And, of course, as the barn leans away the bank wall tends to roll in and also need replaced.
As I said, there’s a good chance it’ll be a problem for the next owner, but I thought you’d like to be aware of the physics. Good plan on the extensive drainage–that’ll help with heave on the foundation.
You might want to plan to firm up the soil inside the curve of that asphalt driveway with plenty of gravel so it can be driven on. I’ve never regretted ample access to a barn for any type of vehicle in any weather.
I can’t dig back through that massive paragraph to check, but you did plan for a drain underneath the frost-free hydrant, right? As low as it would be (bottom level of the barn), it’ll be critical to add a drainage line from about 4’ below the hydrant so the unit and line fully drains when shut off. You might also really appreciate a ‘just in case’ power outlet right near the hydrant. If it does freeze up, a bit of heat tape for an hour or so often does the trick.
Here in the Mid Atlantic Staes we have Bank Barns everywhere…and the Animals live on the Base Floor level and the hay/straw above…We also drive our tractors or trucks inside and park them…
Your post OP was rambling and not coherent.
You would load your hay into the Loft area by driving in or using a hay elevator.
Big key is the ventilation for Stall,area…you need to have the enough above grade wall height so windows can allow cross air flow.
I have had bank barns with big front over hands where vehicles could be parked
My 2 biggest bank barn issues were ceiling height/ventelation and Water…a lot of the older barns got water behind bank walls and cracked and leaked.
I work in a bank barn.
Machinery with engines puts stuff into the loft on the regular, but machinery is stored in a shed with a concrete floor. A loft is far too dusty to safely store equipment that may be hot when getting parked. It is not the wood floor that is the hazard, it’s the dust that will there due to hay and bedding. That is what will catch, possibly explode and burn your barn down.
Water behind the bank wall is an issue. You’ll want to make sure that your floor is above grade (of the rest of the building, obv not above the top of the bank). Even then, you’ll likely get some seepage through that wall.
Ventilation can be an issue if you’re not willing to install tunnel ventilation and deal with the noise and cost of running it. That said, half a dozen animals in a large space you’d probably be ok. The barn I work in is chock full of dairy cattle that give off a lot of heat.
One last thing - you’ll want to make sure that bank is on the coldest side of the building AND that you have sufficient windows on that side to let the coolest air into the barn.
One last thing while i remember, did you really mean 2"x12" beams? Pretty sure you must have meant joists with substantially larger beams underneath them.
If you really did mean to support a 2nd story on 2x12s then I think you need to speak to an architect, engineer, and a builder.
Editing to fix a typo + consider white for your roof. It’s been discussed on other threads in the forum.
Back again. I found your original post really hard to read, so I’m sort of going over Bluey’s edited version (thanks Bluey!)
I think your ventilation plan is flawed somewhat. If you are drawing air into the barn and up through the cupola/s in the middle, you are likely not making the best use of the cooler air on the banked side.
At work, our big sliders at the banked side stay open all summer. As you enter from the bank, you’d see that about 6’ of flooring for the full length of the sliding doors (basically the side of the barn is open during summer) has been removed and replaced with metal car ramps.
So, the cooler air from the ramp side of the barn comes in the doors and falls/is drawn down with exhaust fans (4’, not those stupid little things that horse people are silly enough to think actually do anything). The air is pulled through the entire barn and out the hot (south) side of the barn. That’s not the full ventilation system but it’s a basic over view. If you want to get it right, talk to a dairy veterinarian in your area. Ask about “tunnel ventilation”
In re the car ramps - in winter they get covered with heavy plastic and a layer of straw on top.
Note to others: In Pennsylvania, the Uniform Construction Code does not apply to agricultrual buildings.
I had never heard of tunnel ventilation, but it sounds interesting. I’ll defintely look into that. Sounds good for the Summer, but you don’t want a draft blowing across the animals in the Cellar in the cold months. I do not understand your comment about air on the North Side being cooler. Why is that, other than the North Side being shaded by the barn itself during the hottest part of the day? My barn will sit atop a knoll (local high spot), so there will be no cooler air coming down from higher eleveations into the barn in the evenings.
My ventilation plan was based on the principle of hot air rising. Air enters the Cellar Level via: (1) Two, 6’ wide sliding, aisle doors on the South; (2) 24" square windows in the stalls; and (3) 12" high, clerestory, awning windows along the length of the East/West walls (between the support beams). This incoming air would be drawn into hay chutes, situated between each pair of stalls on the East/West sides, by 48" fans installed in twin roof cupolas. So the hay chutes would connect the Cellar Level with the East and West Lofts (no loft over the center bay of the Main Level). The Main Level, of course, would also have 24" square windows and three sets of 8’ wide sliding doors on the North (bank) Side.
Re: why north - Um, because the north side is shaded and if you plan for your bank on the north, the earthen berm will also cool that side in summer and insulate it in winter.
In terms of keeping the place warm in winter, close the windows on that side.
I’m just going to say once more in clearer, harsher language: you are an idiot if you think storing machinery in the same building as your animals is a good idea. Clearly you have never seen your neighbour’s equipment she catch fire from a hot skidsteer and a bit of dust. The animals were not in that building but we’re still threatened (and their respiratory health compromised) because of smoke.
Sorry to be blunt, but I hope someone will smack me upside the head if I ever think something that could harm my animals is a good idea.
“I’m just going to say once more in clearer, harsher language: you are an idiot if you think storing machinery in the same building as your animals is a good idea.”
Thank you for your candor… and your advice.
There are many things that can cause a barn to catch on fire: (1) Hot machinery, (2) Improperly cured hay, (3) Arcing electrical fixtures (lights/switches) or damaged wires or overloaded circuits, (4) lightning strikes, (5) grain/stray/hay dust, (6) space heaters, and (7) smoking or welding. One in seven (14%) of barn fires are electrical in nature.
“In re the car ramps - in winter they get covered with heavy plastic and a layer of straw on top.” You drive a motorized vehicle over car ramps covered in a combustible material (straw)? I will refrain from smacking you upside the head since I am opposed to violence.
–An Idiot
Yes, a tractor is driven in and out to move large bales, not left sitting hot in one area. Yes, it is still a risk. No, it is not my idea. I wouldn’t do it if I had the choice. It doesn’t happen that often, not even weekly. More like every few months when we get a new shipment of straw.
Mostly the ramps are there for convenience and safety. They prevent people from falling through the ventilation holes. They also make it easier for the tractor operator as on those rare occasions they do drive in, they don’t have to replace the 16’ long super heavy floor boards.
Of course there are many things that can cause a barn to catch fire, but why the hell would anyone knowingly add to the list?
Also, my bosses have btdt with the electrical fire too. Mice in the milk house wall caused some smouldering. They were really lucky with that. Insurance companies now come in with heat detector guns to check barn wiring. That may not prevent rodent accidents, but it sure helps to prevent electrical fires caused from overloading. And yes, even with qualified, up to date on regulations, licensed electricians, overloading can still happen.
Thank you for your informative post!
I am aware of the problem of the barn seperating from the bank due to repeated transfer of forward vehicle momentum to the structrue. I was thinking that having full height reinforced concrete walls would be a sufficient buttress, but your dad’s idea of using concrete “deadmen” buried in the bank and tied to the bank wall with steel cable is something I hadn’t thought of and quite frankly, it’s brilliant, especially the use of turbuckles, which would allow you to perdiodically adjust for movement (I presume).
The 70’ diameter circular drive with a spur up a ramp to the barn’s Main Level will likely be full-depth asphalt, designed to handle heavy trucks (under 50K pounds). The width of the barn’s ramp would be equal to the width of the barn’s North Side (36’). Full-Depth means there is no aggregate base; it is asphalt from top to bottom.
There will be prolly five subfloor drains under the Cellar Level plus two covering the width of the bank (at different depths). All drains would dirvet water downhill to daylight. I was told that 5 gallons of 2B limestone around the base of the water hydrants would be adequate for ensuring proper drainage because of the high absorptive capacity of the stone.
Most importantly, everything will be checked/stamped by a professional engineer (P.E.).
My vision is for a 2.5 story bank barn, measuring 24’x36’, with three vehicles parked on the Main Level (over the animals in the cellar and beneath a partial loft above). The floor of the Main Level would be 2"x12" joists (at 12 inches on center) and supported underneath by heavy timber beams (at 12 feet on center). Decking for the Main Level would be 2x6s. Nothing will be built without stamped plans from a professional engineer.
White roofs are much cooler, because of their reflectivity (albedo), but my house roof is hunter green so the barn roof has to match even though it will absorb more heat… not a bad thing during Winter in Pennsylvania.
[QUOTE=Anjou;7771732]
Thank you for your informative post!
I am aware of the problem of the barn seperating from the bank due to repeated transfer of forward vehicle momentum to the structrue. I was thinking that having full height reinforced concrete walls would be a sufficient buttress, but your dad’s idea of using concrete “deadmen” buried in the bank and tied to the bank wall with steel cable is something I hadn’t thought of and quite frankly, it’s brilliant, especially the use of turbuckles, which would allow you to perdiodically adjust for movement (I presume).
The 70’ diameter circular drive with a spur up a ramp to the barn’s Main Level will likely be full-depth asphalt, designed to handle heavy trucks (under 50K pounds). The width of the barn’s ramp would be equal to the width of the barn’s North Side (36’). Full-Depth means there is no aggregate base; it is asphalt from top to bottom.
There will be prolly five subfloor drains under the Cellar Level plus two covering the width of the bank (at different depths). All drains would dirvet water downhill to daylight. I was told that 5 gallons of 2B limestone around the base of the water hydrants would be adequate for ensuring proper drainage because of the high absorptive capacity of the stone.
Most importantly, everything will be checked/stamped by a professional engineer (P.E.).[/QUOTE]
First of all, I think your barn sounds like it will be beautiful. Combining the terms “debt free” with “7-acre homestead” and “mortise & tenon, timber frame, bank barn” just started me off with a warm fuzzy feeling.
As for ideas or critiques, here are mine, things that I would do if it were my lovely barn:
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I agree with others about the equipment in the barn. I personally would avoid parking anything in the barn that gets hot and stores gasoline. There have been so many horrendous barn fires lately.
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If I had to have gas/petroleum-powered machinery in the barn, I would do the following:
a) design the barn with a concrete floor on the middle level.
b) separate the air circulation zones so that there is no connection between the bottom floor with the live animals and the top floors with the flammable stuff (in order to inhibit spread of fire).
c) construct ceiling and walls with fireboard to add an extra layer of protection.
d) install smoke detectors and sprinklers.
e) keep the horses out most of the time.
e) Finally, I would think about a system to get the horses out quickly in case of fire. -
(as you said) hire an engineer to ensure that your building is designed to avoid those problems mentioned above, the problems of building tilt/separation and hydraulic pressure affecting the banked wall. There are simple design solutions to both of these issues.
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factor in wall thickness in your design calculations. It is not possible to fit four 12’x12’ stalls in a 24’x36’ building because building sizing is assumed to be the outside measurement. Once you account for the wall thicknesses and the size of the stall separations, you can lose several feet of interior space. It sounds like your walls will be especially thick. This is not a problem, it is just something to design for. You can either make smaller stalls or add a couple of feet to the building – easy peasy.
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I think a 9’ ceiling is too low for the bottom storey where your horses will be. For me, 10’ would be minimum, and don’t forget, once you start adding an inch here for footing, an inch there for stall mats (you may decide later to use them), another inch there for ceiling panels, or a sprinkler head, then you start having a really tight space. I know it is done. I see photos on Craigslist all the time with horses in 7’ sheds. But your barn is going to be a gorgeous, well-designed work of architecture, and you won’t want to worry that adding deep bedding will be an issue.
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there are new roof materials available in several colors which will reflect sun/heat. In fact, these cool roofs are now required by code where I live. Here are some sites with info. I am sure you can find a vendor who sells the green color you want:
http://www.owenscorning.com/roofing/browse-shingles/duration-premium-cool/
http://www.malarkeyroofing.com/wp-content/themes/malarkey/pdf/productmedia/ecoasispremium/01-Malarkey_EcoasisPremiumFlyer.pdf
http://www.certainteed.com/products/roofing/more-info/solar-reflective-shingles.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflective_surfaces_(geoengineering)
https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=roof_prods.pr_crit_roof_products
[QUOTE=Anjou;7762604]
The sidewalls will have three windows each and there will be two windows on the southeast side (8 total in the cellar). On the inside, there will be 4, floor-to-ceiling box stalls (two on each side of the aisle) with 2’x4’ barred opening to the aisle and the adjacent stall… …At the rear of the aisle will be an enclosed 6’x12’ closet for tack and tools. [/QUOTE]
I would be concerned that the two back stalls will be stuffy or claustrophobic because the 6’-deep tack stall will block half of the stall fronts. Maybe you could wait on building the tack room until you have used the stalls for a while to see if a six-foot depth is okay or if a 4-foot depth is better.
