Agreed, there are some variable to consider. I don’t appreciate the snark of “if you are going to start throwing out scientific articles…” though. It isn’t necessary to the point you were trying to make and it it extremely condescending. My only point is that a study was completed that DID find a difference. I see a difference, myself, when a horse is shod/unshod in steel.
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The real question isn’t even whether there’s a difference, but whether the judges would be able to see that difference if they didn’t know which horses were still wearing shoes and which ones just had them pulled. They very well might be able to see it, but until that was sorted out using some kind of unbiased criteria then I’ll continue to have some doubts.
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No snark intended, so my apology if that is how it came across. I, too, think I see a difference in my mare, albeit slight. Don’t know if it is unintentional bias as my farrier and vet swear they don’t (this summer we were looking at a possible lameness issue).
I haven’t read the article and don’t have a strong opinion on the issue, but the quoted abstract above says they find differences with p<0.05 (not .5), which is a standard level of statistical significance in most fields.
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See- I read that wrong. insert shrug hands. And 0.05 isn’t necessarily the “standard”, it is generally the standard at which it BECOMES statistically significant. I haven’t read the article or looked to see if they have an SAP to look at. And with a N of 9 I’d question how significant it is. And So stats is irrelevant to my middle post but is still a small N etc etc etc.
Ha! This would certainly make a lot of grooms’/exercise riders’ lives easier. I remember the days of standing in line for the farrier with a horse in each hand prior to the hack at the Capitol Challenge. Then keeping the shoes in my pockets, and returning straight AFTER the hack to get them tacked back on. Just run what you brung for all classes!
I wonder about the judge’s viewpoint. I could see a judge looking at two nearly identical moving horses. One is shod and one is barefoot. Maybe the judge would favor the horse that could move that well even with shoes? (assuming the judge would notice shod vs unshod in the lineup)
The judge is not in a position to see whether or not a horse is shod about 98% of the time. Most judges sit on the side of the ring, and usually up above the ring a bit in order to have a good view of the whole ring. There is no way to see the bottom of the horses’ feet. And frankly, if the judge is staring at the bottom of the horses’ feet, they’re not spending enough time looking at the rest of the horse to judge the class.
In addition to any other issue with this idea, it would require some sort of system to track and check whether a horse went barefoot or in shoes in the other classes.
And this rule change proposal did not get anywhere at the USHJA meeting. At all.
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I feel like there are so many other more serious and more pervasive horse welfare issues than pulling shoes for the hack. Realistically, this happens at a few key event (Devon, indoors, junior finals, pony finals, etc.), not everyone is doing it (some people don’t even bother to hack if they don’t have a top mover at those kind of shows), any harm seems relatively short lived (whose horse hasn’t been foot sore a time or two for one reason or another, most of them recover quite fine with no long term damage). Most importantly, it has a baked in reverse incentive against abuse-- if you do this enough to make your horse lame you WON’T be winning the hack… or anything else… because your lame horse will get spun. So unlike other horse welfare issues that reward bad behavior, this one punishes itself. If what we’re worried is people doing it enough to lame their horses… that laming will frustrate the very thing they were trying to achieve.
Maybe there are a few people “abusing” this by laming their horses-- but I really think that’s not true. And even if it was true that some barn out there was doing this at every show or multiple times a day or whatever-- if they happen to have horses with rock-hard feet who can handle all that shoe removal and replacement-- who cares?
Honestly? To me it’s like instituting a rule that braids can’t be re-used for more than one day. That makes horses uncomfortable and itchy. But most people don’t do it. The few people who do, yeah it’s not comfortable for those horses but there’s no long term damage. If someone has a horse that can keep braids in a week and not mess them up or be uncomfortable-- bully for that person. Most of us take them out and put them back in every day. And we really don’t need a “horse welfare” rule about it.
At least, not in a world in which I think there are really SIGNIFICANT, SERIOUS, and RAMPANT horse welfare issues that really truly harm horses in long term ways. Not when our time/effort is better focused there.
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I asked my farrier about this the over day… we pointed out a full set of aluminums weigh less than a pound. He then said, “it’d be a heck of a lot easier and healthier for all involved if those amateurs got a little fitter and lost a few pounds” :lol::lol:
But really though, if people think removing 0.5 lbs makes there horses trot better, it seems we’re just a few steps away from keeping hunters in weights (think TWH chains) 95% of the time and removing them just for showing…
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i cannot find the link back to the original rule change proposal but dont remember it specifically being mentioned as an animal welfare issue.
seems more like a level / equal play issue if anything.
seems like a non-issue from what I have learned here. Their may be real or perceived advantage by changing the flight weight of the hooves but that seems like an unusual stretch?
Not at all the same. The “weight training” scenario isn’t what makes the (slight) difference, but rather a return to their “natural” movement. Heavy steel makes them move with more knee than they would barefoot (in theory).
Distribution of weight makes a difference. A horse carrying weight on his back is different than him carrying weight strapped to his feet. If you have any doubt about this, try walking up a couple flights of stairs with a backpack with two bricks in it. Then show a brick into each sock and put polo wraps around it to keep them in place. Walk those same stairs. 
I suspect your farrier realizes this and he’s just kidding… but theoretically the difference between barefoot and in shoes COULD impact the way a horse moves.
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That’s a reach and your farrier made a stooopid remark about some of their clients. Nice, wonder what they say about you…? Just a joke, right. Not funny. Sorry, just over so called “jokes” made by service providers about their clients when asked a simple question requiring their professional expertise. Rider being too fat is not a professional or helpful answer. No I’m not heavy either. Really doubt any riders in a AA level prestige show Hunter Under Saddle riding great movers are packing too many extra pounds anyway.
Never had a horse that moved well enough for it to make much different but I can see about a .05 difference in my own horses between steel and aluminum and if I had a 200k 9.8 mover that needed a primary color ribbon for a tricolor at a prestige show in a ring with 20 great movers, 10 of those .9.8 or better? If a .02 improvement is possible? I’d pull the fronts.
Now, as an industry, we can act like a bunch of sheep and no doubt this gets overdone on horses that need more like a .2 improvement then a .02. But for that top few percent with top horses in important classes? Sure. Doesn’t bother me, I would never come close to beating them anyway so don’t really care.
I believe the rule change proposal came via the horse welfare committee.
The stated intent of the rule change:
“In consideration of the welfare of the horse, this rule change proposal discourages a practice that avoids unnecessarily compromising the integrity of the horse’s hoof health and condition. Used to achieve an uncertain competitive edge in under saddle classes, this practice often causes bruising, soreness, and breakage of the hoof wall and can result in extended lameness.”
https://prc.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/2018/Proposals/288-18.pdf
I agree with the previous poster who said this issue regulates itself. If the shoes are pulled on a horse with bad/soft/whatever feet, he won’t get a hack prize, and they won’t pull his shoes the next time.
100% agree with everything that you say - you’re absolutely correct.
With all due respect, this is a proposed solution in desperate search of a problem. Indeed, it is essentially self-regulating - if people over do it, then it is a very self-defeating practice.
What isn’t being discussed nearly enough is the relative merits of wearing steel year-round and occasionally pulling shoes for the under saddle vs. wearing aluminum year-round. In my experience, many vets would recommend the additional support and stability of steel and occasionally pulling shoes instead of year-round aluminum. Aluminum tends to degrade, misshape, and “slip” - particularly on 3’6"+ horses. Now, if we’re talking about a 2’6" horse or the like, I’m not sure that it matters all that much. But, in terms of overall horse welfare, again, the majority of vets that I know would favor steel.
A few other quick thoughts:
As has been previously stated, this “debate” is pretty ridiculous if you’re not talking about the top movers at a AA prestige show. At that level, the movement differences are so minute that every little bit helps. And, yes - some horses definitely move better barefoot. (Others, not so much - and the “not so much” ones are probably in shoes for the under saddle.) My point is: If you’re doing small jumps at a B show, this topic is functionally irrelevant. Likewise, if your horse isn’t at least a B+ mover, then it likely doesn’t much matter. The top ribbons at Devon and indoors go to horses that win most under saddles during the course of the year. If you’re placing fourth in the under saddle at a random A show, then you’re delusional to think that you’re going to win a major under saddle at a AA prestige show - with or without shoes.
The best programs bring their own farriers with them to the prestige shows. The person pulling the shoes is the person responsible for the horse’s hoof well-being throughout the course of the year. They’re generally not having some random show farrier work on their top hunters. Again, the best programs with the best horses also (generally) have the resources to provide the best care. These people understand the magnitude of their investment - they’re not going to do things that compromise their horse’s health and welfare.
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WHY does this practice need a rule change?!?!? If some people want to pull shoes, let them. If people feel disadvantaged by the people who are pulling shoes, then they can pull shoes too. No one is stopping them.
This could come under the heading of the stupidest rule change suggestions I have ever heard of. And that is saying something.
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I agree, this rule proposal, while well intended, seems pretty unnecessary because as many have pointed out, it isn’t common and by definition if your horse is going to potentially damage the foot in a 5 minute hack on good footing (where this typically happens) then pulling THAT horse’s shoes is probably not going to improve his hack chances!
Also, how are you going to enforce it? Take photographs of ever o/f horse to see if they are shod and validate against the u/s class? I mean I know very few horses are barefoot, but what’s to stop me from going back to the barn and pulling shoes before the hack. Sure, you will see my barefoot horse in the hack, but if you challenge me and I say I pulled his shoes before his division, how are you going to prove otherwise? Run over to the horse show photographer and hope it wasn’t a muddy day and he got a good view?
Finally, yes, some horses truly do move better without shoes. Some move fractionally better, with others you can see a serious difference. I tend to think the true old style daisy cutter movers see significant improvement, horses with a bit more elasticity in the knee/hock and more natural suspension, maybe not as much.
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I like the 'solution in search of a problem" observation. True that.
My last horse was a pretty nice mover in its prime and a bit nicer in aluminum’s but I went back to steel all year. The steel stayed on better in damp turnout limiting hoof damage around the cliches and the slight improvement in the aluminum was no way going to get me out if the pastels in quality competition so it was pointless. Pulling shoes would be a ridiculous additional expense in search of a pink instead of green ribbon.
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Funny, related story: The same horse won every over fences and the under saddle in the 3’3 at Capital Challenge this year. And, for that matter, won every 3’3 over fences and every under saddle at every other indoor show that he entered. With shoes. Yet, I still saw upwards of ten horses pulling shoes in that division. What? Were they gunning for seventh place? I guess I get it if you’re in the running for champion, but in this case it would seem like a complete waste of time, money, and horse hoof since the same horse won every class.
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