A rule change proposal requiring the same shoeing on the horse in both over fences and in the hack. Apparently some people pull shoes for the hack
I have never heard of this, what is the advantage gained aside from refreshment in the farriers pocket
This is super common at the highest levels of the hunters. The idea is that the lighter the foot, the better the movement. Most average people will just shoe with aluminum for show season or the big shows, but some people will go to the expense of pulling the shoes after the over fences and before the hack. Itâs kind of the opposite of the weighted shoes on gaited horsesâthey are used to enhance the gait as well, but in a different way.
How well it works is debatable and is probably individual to each horse. I noticed a change in my horseâs movement in aluminum versus steel shoesânot enough at my level to keep her in aluminums, as they are more expensive. But in a hack full of top of the line horses that are virtually indistinguishable from each other, people are looking for any edge they can get. Not something that I would do, but Iâm just an average horse personânot someone riding a $200,000 plus horse at some of the biggest shows in the country.
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I am not a hunter rider, and have never shown at a level that would make me even think of this but I have worked for people who do just this. I could go either way on the rule change, however I think that not allowing shoes to be pulled would be beneficial to the horsesâ feet if nothing else. I canât imagine how those horsesâ feet are having shoes taken off and on all the time.
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I think itâs a ridiculous practice. Like the above posters, Iâm not in that league of competition but I donât think Iâd resort to pulling shoes. At that level those horses are all so nice that on any given day any one of them could be the class winner. What is a sad commentary is that they even have to make this a rule. SMH
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Some think it makes a .05 difference in movement and at the top levels, thatâs the difference between a primary or a pastel ribbon.
IMO not worth a rule change tho if I had a 9.5 mover, it might be. Bigger fish to fry via rule changes.
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The advantage to pulling shoes for the hack is that the change of weight from âshoesâ to âno shoesâ can improve the horses movement. It doesnât make a massive difference, but it can definitely give an edge to a really good mover. In my experience, it really only happens at the highest levels in situations where a small difference in how the hack pins will effect the overall division.
^^ this!
I have only pulled shoes at Indoors/Devon when it may make a difference in Champion/Reserve - so a total of twice in 2018 and have never had any soreness because of it. We will also try to have our farrier come to pull/tack back on to avoid any possible issues.
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Wow. Just wow. There is something about this that is very⊠I donât know⊠trying to articulate. I think there is risk taking shoes off and on-- even if slight, of a horse getting footsore. It can eat up the hoof wall. Maybe these are horses with rock cruncher hooves and it doesnât matter. And then again, maybe not.
As well, if the horse moves better in no/lighter shoes-- well, are those not better for the horse? Why is the horse not like this all of the time? Presumably the show ring has not got so perverse as to reward as good movement something that is lameness or harmful to the horse in its way of going- so why not let the horse be its best all the time, even if jumping?
I just. I donât know. On the other hand its not an issue I will have to confront, myself, as I do not show hunters nor at these levels.
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This is one of those times where I question - is it harmful to the horse or just plain weird?
To me, it is probably more weird that we (I say, a collective we, having never done it myself) are so desperate to win that we pull shoes, but not harmful enough to regulate. I would love to hear othersâ opinions thoughâŠ
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I know a lot of horses who definitely do not move better when shoes are off, so I guess thatâs saying something about the soundness of those who can pull shoes and those who donât or canât.
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In my opinion itâs silly to have a rule regarding this. In California you will typically only see this at a WCHR show and only the horses who are likely to be very top in the ribbons will take off front shoes for the under saddle because every point counts in those divisions. Or of course at indoors and pony finals. If your horse is sounder in steel shoes and doesnât live in aluminums like many hunters do, you might get a slightly better trot if heâs barefoot for the undersaddle. You wouldnât pull the shoes if your rounds over the jumps are terrible. and Itâs usually $100+ to have the show farrier do it. So usually just the people who are very close in points or at the top of the class will do this to try and get the best u/s ribbon possible. I donât see why itâs a problem. If you have a bad mover you wouldnât waste the money. And if you have a very sensitive horse you wouldnât risk a problem if heâs going to be sore after. Only the very best movers would do it. Or someone trying to get in the top 5. Usually at this level the competitors already know how the ribbons are going to go. Theyâve shown against the same horses multiple times. But if you have the best jumper and the best rounds over fences but you keep your horse in steel shoes for soundness, then you shouldnât be penalized and get beat by a horse who is able to go in aluminums.
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Iâd have agreed with #somethingblue until watching a slew of 3â A/A horses have their shoes pulled to hack after pretty marginal trips o/f at Capital Challenge this year. Seemed over the top, for sure. I also agree with #another-bay. Weird but we have bigger fish to fry.
WellâŠcapital challenge might be unique in that they have an Under Saddle Championship class where I think the top 5 of each age group get to ride in a special flat class final with big fun prizes. This is separate from the division and itâs an under saddle championship only. In this particular event I would expect every horse to have their shoes off because theyâre all likely to be excellent movers vying for the win. I really donât understand why anyone would be upset about changing âgearâ for different classes.
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well lets go the other way on this. Might a horse shod with heavy (ish) shoes perhaps lift or make more forehand effort over fences. Might it give him a slightly better something in his effort. Then pull the shoes and viola, a daisy cutter.
Shoe weigh can make a huge difference for some horses, and no difference at all for other horses. I had a horse that was a very fancy mover barefootâwe put steel shoes on him and he suddenly looked like a saddle seat Morgan! That horse had to live in aluminum or rubber shoes that were lightâand with the light shoes heâd consistently pin in the hacks, but with steel noone would have looked at him twice. I currently have two horses, one a lighter shoe or barefoot makes no difference. The other the lighter shoe makes some differenceânot a dramatic amount, but enough that it will affect his pinning in tough company. During show season he wears aluminum because of this. I can understand pulling shoes for a flat class in tough competition. I am surprised that if they are using aluminums that pulling the shoe entirely improves it that much, but I can see it with steel. I donât think having or not having the rule change is a big deal; I could go either way with it.
This really only happens at the big big shows where a slight difference in placing could matter
Iâve pulled shoes for various reasons and then put them back on before the hoof could change, and when I do that I just use the same nail holes, so I doubt it makes any difference to the horse or the hoof.
And without a double blind study of some sort, I question whether the judges can even see any difference it might make to a horseâs movement, and suspect that it may be one of those things people believe might give their horse an edge when it doesnât really?
Or maybe it does, because the judges see it and it influences how they pin the class?
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Preach. Steel shoes weigh what? 9 ounces? Aluminums 5-6? If it so drastically changes a horseâs movement there may be something else going on. I have a very good mover. I see a barely perceptible difference in steel vs aluminum vs barefoot and it may be unintentional bias.
Personally- I think it is ridiculous but it has no affect on me whether they implement the rule or not.
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A standard size 1 steel shoe weighs on average 337g or .74 lbs and an aluminum shoe with equivalent size weighs 129g or .28 lbs, so steel are more than 2.5x heavier).
It has been clinically proven that aluminum shoes reduce knee movement. In short, the findings are as follows - the last sentence is key:
"The measured stride length, fetlock extension, elbow and knee range of motion, and minimum and maximum elbow angle remained constant between treatments. However, there was a significant treatment effect on minimum carpal angle and maximum hoof height, with aluminum shoes having a larger minimum carpal angle than those in steel shoes (P < .05) and a lower maximum hoof height (P < .05). An overall 3-degree difference in minimum carpal angle and approximate 2.5-cm difference in maximum hoof height was observed between treatments. This finding is of particular importance to performance horse disciplines for which a lesser degree of knee action is desirable.â
Source: Effects of Steel and Aluminum Shoes on Forelimb Kinematics in Stock-Type Horses as Measured at the Trot. Elodie,E Huguet, Kylee J. Duberstein. Journal of Equine Veterinary Science, Volume 32, Issue 5, May 2012, pages 262-267.
Coming from the pleasure horse world, where there are six-figure futurities dedicated to movement, I can tell you with 100% certainty that some horses travel significantly better in aluminum than steel. Some horses do not like the feel of steel and move more like plow horses. I have an extremely piegeon toed horse who wore steel for supportive while jumping. We now have him barefoot and he moves so much better that the dressage trainer in our barn didnât even recognize him the other day. That said, I still think the practice is silly since the horse is entered in a division. I think if the hack was not part of the division, a change of equipment would be fine. But I do struggle with changing equipment/accessories for classes within the same division. To someone elseâs point, maybe heavier shoes, clinically proven to produce more knee action, actually benefit the steel shod horse in the classes with jumps. I am not aware of a study for that, but if that was the case, there would be a competitive advantage to jumping in steel and then pulling the shoes for the hack.
1.So 337 grams is 11 ounces. So that 2 ounces more, and will vary by type.
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An N=9 is not large.
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As a scientist- though it is valid DATA in a journal, it is hardly convincing to a discerning reader that is has any impact. I can see many areas as to why is CANâT be cited.
4.Only a N=9, only done on 6 QH, 1 QH/Draft, an Appaloosa and a QH/Arabian.
` no wb, no ponies- no mention of size, weight and a HUGE age rangeâŠ
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They selected the shoes specifically to be used in the study so it may differ if my farrier is using a 9 ounce steel.
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They did it off of video- no mention of if it was the same person trotting the animal. As seen on different handlers on the line- the speed you trot an animal can change the quality of the trot.
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Plus- a p value of 0.5 where 0 (no chance) to 1 (certainty) means 50% chance and in most sciences would be considered borderline of statistical significance.
Again- of no bearing to me but if you are going to start throwing out journal articles- I will happily engage in a scientific discussion.
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