Barefoot trim disaster?

[arbeegirl]

Poor girl! I think you are doing the right thing putting her in boots to make her feel better.

I took recently bought an OTTB (March 2019). I also use a barefoot trimmer for my warmblood with great feet. I talked to her when I brought my new guy home and said can we give barefoot a try with him since he is so young, he just turn 4. For the first 2 cycles she trimmed him and then used the cast wraps on his front feet. His back feet did fine without anything. The original plan was to do 3 cycles with the casts on the front feet. During the cycle with the second set of casts, he got them off at about 2 weeks prior to his next trim. He was fine. So my trimmer decided to just use Hoof Armor on his front feet after is last trim. He does great but can be a little sensitive on the gravel driveway. She trims him around 5-6 weeks right now. He has been growing nice hoof each time.

If my guy needs shoes in the future, I will put them back on. But for now I am happy I can give his feet a break from the shoes.

[MzCarol]

@Palm Beach

Wrong. Mine go 6-8 and have been for many years, and are sound and win lots of competitions. No problems. No distortions, although one gets very very mild flares behind. Mine are in front shoes, though. Maybe your trim just doesn’t hold up.

I’m not wrong. You cannot tell me and make me believe that for 4-6 weeks your horses’ feet aren’t growing and distorting at all, and that any growth would then take place only in weeks 6-8 thus facilitating the trim in the first place.

From the moment a horses’ feet are trimmed and they begin walking on them they start to distort by simple load bearing and then by conformational issues (toe in/out, etc). Once those toes resume growing the natural breakover is lost and they break over incorrectly.

It does not matter if they are in shoes or not, they grow. The heels run forward and the toes still stretch, taking the shoe with them.

What the heck does that mean “Maybe your trim just doesn’t hold up”? That’s ridiculous LOL I’ll bet you anything of your choosing that my horses are in proper balance and shape longer because I check them every couple of weeks and remove any flare or growth necessary instead of waiting 6-8 weeks where there is more to deal with and they have been out of balance for longer. I don’t know about your horses, and certainly horses vary, but my horses grow good, strong hoof pretty fast so to take 5 minutes and rasp off the new growth gives them the best functioning foot.

[Palm_Beach]

@MzCarol

I’m not wrong. You cannot tell me and make me believe that for 4-6 weeks your horses’ feet aren’t growing and distorting at all, and that any growth would then take place only in weeks 6-8 thus facilitating the trim in the first place.

From the moment a horses’ feet are trimmed and they begin walking on them they start to distort by simple load bearing and then by conformational issues (toe in/out, etc). Once those toes resume growing the natural breakover is lost and they break over incorrectly.

It does not matter if they are in shoes or not, they grow. The heels run forward and the toes still stretch, taking the shoe with them.

What the heck does that mean “Maybe your trim just doesn’t hold up”? That’s ridiculous LOL I’ll bet you anything of your choosing that my horses are in proper balance and shape longer because I check them every couple of weeks and remove any flare or growth necessary instead of waiting 6-8 weeks where there is more to deal with and they have been out of balance for longer. I don’t know about your horses, and certainly horses vary, but my horses grow good, strong hoof pretty fast so to take 5 minutes and rasp off the new growth gives them the best functioning foot.

Of course they grow, but a competent farrier doesn’t need to come back every 4 weeks and reshoe the horse to keep the foot healthy. A correctly trimmed and balanced foot should not get so out of whack in just 4 weeks. A quick question though, I’ve had the one horse for 10 years and the other for 16, how many more years before they develop problems?

[Guilherme]

@MzCarol

I’m not wrong. You cannot tell me and make me believe that for 4-6 weeks your horses’ feet aren’t growing and distorting at all, and that any growth would then take place only in weeks 6-8 thus facilitating the trim in the first place.

Growing, yes. Distorting, maybe. Depends on conformation, use, terrain, and what you think “distortion” is.

But, query: what is the average rate of hoof growth per day and what are the primary variables?

From the moment a horses’ feet are trimmed and they begin walking on them they start to distort by simple load bearing and then by conformational issues (toe in/out, etc). Once those toes resume growing the natural breakover is lost and they break over incorrectly.

NO THEY DO NOT!!! They grow, distortion is another issue. As to breakover, there are multiple variables in that, too.

It does not matter if they are in shoes or not, they grow. The heels run forward and the toes still stretch, taking the shoe with them.

What the heck does that mean “Maybe your trim just doesn’t hold up”? That’s ridiculous LOL I’ll bet you anything of your choosing that my horses are in proper balance and shape longer because I check them every couple of weeks and remove any flare or growth necessary instead of waiting 6-8 weeks where there is more to deal with and they have been out of balance for longer. I don’t know about your horses, and certainly horses vary, but my horses grow good, strong hoof pretty fast so to take 5 minutes and rasp off the new growth gives them the best functioning foot.

I’ve got one with feet of iron, two with feet of brass, and one with feet of clay. Each gets the treatment their particular foot requires.

Seems to me that part of this thread’s genesis was a trimmer that got too aggressive with a trim and caused pain, maybe injury, to the horse. This suggests that the skill of the person holding the rasp is a crucial element.

Again, one size does not fit all.

G.

[candyappy]

@MzCarol

I’m not wrong. You cannot tell me and make me believe that for 4-6 weeks your horses’ feet aren’t growing and distorting at all, and that any growth would then take place only in weeks 6-8 thus facilitating the trim in the first place.

From the moment a horses’ feet are trimmed and they begin walking on them they start to distort by simple load bearing and then by conformational issues (toe in/out, etc). Once those toes resume growing the natural breakover is lost and they break over incorrectly.

It does not matter if they are in shoes or not, they grow. The heels run forward and the toes still stretch, taking the shoe with them.

What the heck does that mean “Maybe your trim just doesn’t hold up”? That’s ridiculous LOL I’ll bet you anything of your choosing that my horses are in proper balance and shape longer because I check them every couple of weeks and remove any flare or growth necessary instead of waiting 6-8 weeks where there is more to deal with and they have been out of balance for longer. I don’t know about your horses, and certainly horses vary, but my horses grow good, strong hoof pretty fast so to take 5 minutes and rasp off the new growth gives them the best functioning foot.

You have the advantage of being able to do them yourself, so of course you are going to do maintenance trims at the time of your choosing. My horses have always gone 7- 8 weeks and by then I agree with you that they need a trim, especially when the weather and grass are good.

While there may be some flare( at times) and a little length, I can’t see where any of my horses have ever suffered because of it, no matter what their ages or breeds, shoes or barefoot. Doesn’t make your way right/ wrong or my way right/ wrong.

We do what works for us( and our horses) as individuals. What I can say from 40+ years of horse ownership( and using many farriers) is the skill of the farrier has a huge impact on how my horses look at that 8 week mark.

[MellisaNM]

Update on my Mare: farrier came out today, filled her a little bit and gave her pads. The vet had came out earlier in the week gave her anti inflammatory medication and told me to continue with the boots until the farrier could come. The difference in her is like night and day. She was walking without the head bob, and not limping. She looks so happy. There was not much hoof to work with so she will get assessed in 4 weeks.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

Glad she is on the road to recovery @MellisaNM . Keep us posted!

[MellisaNM]

I will upload some pictures tomorrow. Thank you all for the advice. I have a much happier horse!

[skydy]

It seems I may be “old fashioned” in my opinion of the acceptability of this new “barefoot trimming” and-it’s-fine-if-they’re-lame attitude. I’m certainly not “old fashioned” in other aspects of horse care, but any trim or shoeing that leaves a horse lame, to me, is not OK.

If a anyone that claims to be a professional, leaves your horse lame and says it’s part of the plan, in my opinion,they are incompetent.

If they consider that making your horse lame through “cycles” of trimming to achieve some “barefoot” ideal is OK, then they should be nowhere near a horses hoof. Period.

OP I’m glad your horse is comfortable again. Well done you for questioning the rationale of the person that made your horse lame.:yes:

[S1969]

@skydy

It seems I may be “old fashioned” in my opinion of the acceptability of this new “barefoot trimming” and-it’s-fine-if-they’re-lame attitude. I’m certainly not “old fashioned” in other aspects of horse care, but any trim or shoeing that leaves a horse lame, to me, is not OK.

Any trim or shoeing that leaves a horse lame is not ok to most competent hoof care professionals, regardless of their specific discipline (farrier/blacksmith/barefoot trimmer.)

It’s only the incompetent ones that seem to think that is “normal.” Maybe it is normal for their clients, unfortunately.

[Guilherme]

@S1969

Any trim or shoeing that leaves a horse lame is not ok to most competent hoof care professionals, regardless of their specific discipline (farrier/blacksmith/barefoot trimmer.)

ABSOLUTELY!!!

It’s only the incompetent ones that seem to think that is “normal.” Maybe it is normal for their clients, unfortunately.

Indeed. Getting back to that “human skill” thing. That includes the skill of the human owner to know and understand what good hoof care actually is.

G.

[Redemption3]

@Guilherme

Indeed. Getting back to that “human skill” thing. That includes the skill of the human owner to know and understand what good hoof care actually is.

G.

Yes. And to identify the incompetent trimmers/farriers masquerading as experienced with all sorts of “lame” excuses as to why they are trimming the way they are. Sadly it may take some of us a few cycles before we start to question others about the trim instead of continuing to ask the trimmer questions.

[Scribbler]

It also depends on the definition of “lame.”

At our barn horses live on soft footing, but the trails are sand or sandy gravel. And, ironically, the folks who trail ride are more likely to go barefoot and the folks who never leave the groomed arena are more likely to have shoes. Go figure.

Anyhow, there are barefoot horses that are fine w t c on the trails before and after trims, and at any time of year. There are horses that are almost OK on the trails w t c most of the year, but are usually more comfortable halfway through the trim cycle. Then there are horses that are marginally OK on the trails, and not OK right after a trim. But I am not talking about head bobbing lame. I mean that they might take a few ouch steps during a one hour ride, or they might not stride out in a lengthened trot on the harder patches of trail.

My horse is in the “almost OK” category. I’ve experimented with having the trimmer leave a bit more wall or bar, but that just leads to problems down the road, like flare in the quarters. But I would not say that the trimmer has ever left her lame.

So I am a huge advocate of hoof boots. I want my horse to move out with her full stride on the trails, and I don’t want her getting balky because her feet hurt. During the seasons she is totally OK with the trails, she is fine right after a trim.

Anyhow, my point was that many barefoot horses are not 100% OK with the terrain they are ridden on, and that might be more obvious when they lose a few centimeters of wall or bars right after a trim. But I wouldn’t consider that as the trim making them lame. I’d say they need boots.

BTW, I’ve recently had the chance to see the barefoot hooves of two horses in our barn that are getting trimmed by two different well enough regarded farriers. Both times in was a day or two after the trim. And I was rather shocked. One horse had unattended flair and overgrown bars, the other horse had heels rasped totally unevenly, over grown bars, and big lateral imbalance. Neither had a mustang roll. Both times, the owners were asking for advice about boots because their horses were going lame on the trails. It makes me wonder about what kind of trim these farriers put on the horses they shoe. Very not impressed.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@MzCarol

I’m not wrong.

My first reaction in reading this statement was that it is coming from a person who doesn’t/won’t consider that, in this case, every horse is different and every environment they are kept in is different.

Being humble enough to admit that personal “rules” or “guidelines” should be written in sand and not carved in stone is someone I am not interested listening to. If one is so rigid, the conversation may just not go anyplace.

…shrug…

[skydy]

@Where'sMyWhite

My first reaction in reading this statement was that it is coming from a person who doesn’t/won’t consider that, in this case, every horse is different and every environment they are kept in is different.

Being humble enough to admit that personal “rules” or “guidelines” should be written in sand and not carved in stone is someone I am interested listening to. If one is so rigid, the conversation may just not go anyplace.

…shrug…

I agree. Every horse is different and their shoeing/trimming schedules must reflect that.

In my earlier post ( an unfortunate word salad ) I was trying express that it used to be unacceptable for any horse to be lame after being trimmed or shod. “Just a little” lame or “ouchy” was not OK either. A new farrier was in order.

As for taking a few “ouchy” steps on terrain, the horse obviously either needs to be shod or can’t go barefoot without boots. It’s just not acceptable to use a horse in a manner that causes it pain.

Some of attitudes expressed on the old threads on this forum about “barefoot trimming” were surprising, to say the least. They make some interesting reading. Pronouncements were made that the horse was going to be lame until it was “transitioned” from shoes to being barefoot, and all sorts of other nonsense.

OP, I hope your horse is making progress.

[MellisaNM]

Update: She is walking comfortably, I will pay very close attention to her. First step in the road to recovery and hopefully getting her hooves back healthy.

[skydy]

Great news! Well done you for taking the problem in hand and doing the best for your horse. You horse is lucky to have an owner such as yourself. :yes:

[MellisaNM]

I feel horrible for not doing the right thing sooner. I will make sure to do more research before I trust someones work, I really wish I had of questioned her trims earlier. I will definitely give you all updates throughout the process of getting her hooves back healthy. Thank you everyone for the education and advice.

[Palm_Beach]

@Scribbler

It also depends on the definition of “lame.”

At our barn horses live on soft footing, but the trails are sand or sandy gravel. And, ironically, the folks who trail ride are more likely to go barefoot and the folks who never leave the groomed arena are more likely to have shoes. Go figure.

Anyhow, there are barefoot horses that are fine w t c on the trails before and after trims, and at any time of year. There are horses that are almost OK on the trails w t c most of the year, but are usually more comfortable halfway through the trim cycle. Then there are horses that are marginally OK on the trails, and not OK right after a trim. But I am not talking about head bobbing lame. I mean that they might take a few ouch steps during a one hour ride, or they might not stride out in a lengthened trot on the harder patches of trail.

My horse is in the “almost OK” category. I’ve experimented with having the trimmer leave a bit more wall or bar, but that just leads to problems down the road, like flare in the quarters. But I would not say that the trimmer has ever left her lame.

So I am a huge advocate of hoof boots. I want my horse to move out with her full stride on the trails, and I don’t want her getting balky because her feet hurt. During the seasons she is totally OK with the trails, she is fine right after a trim.

Anyhow, my point was that many barefoot horses are not 100% OK with the terrain they are ridden on, and that might be more obvious when they lose a few centimeters of wall or bars right after a trim. But I wouldn’t consider that as the trim making them lame. I’d say they need boots.

BTW, I’ve recently had the chance to see the barefoot hooves of two horses in our barn that are getting trimmed by two different well enough regarded farriers. Both times in was a day or two after the trim. And I was rather shocked. One horse had unattended flair and overgrown bars, the other horse had heels rasped totally unevenly, over grown bars, and big lateral imbalance. Neither had a mustang roll. Both times, the owners were asking for advice about boots because their horses were going lame on the trails. It makes me wonder about what kind of trim these farriers put on the horses they shoe. Very not impressed.

Mostly good post. Hooves will toughen according to the terrain to which they are exposed , although they may never toughen up enough to be ridden barefoot over hard ground. Just because they are ouchy on hard ground doesn’t mean they are lame.

[MzCarol]

@Palm Beach

Of course they grow, but a competent farrier doesn’t need to come back every 4 weeks and reshoe the horse to keep the foot healthy. A correctly trimmed and balanced foot should not get so out of whack in just 4 weeks. A quick question though, I’ve had the one horse for 10 years and the other for 16, how many more years before they develop problems?

Correct, it should not get ‘so’ out of whack in 4 weeks but by 8-10 weeks the foot ‘is’ so out of whack which means that, overall, the foot spends more time out of whack than it does in correct balance. By keeping an eye on them I only have to rasp a little every 2-4 weeks to give them the optimal time in balance with no distortions.