Barisone Aftermath: Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity, And Then

[iberianfan]

Oh yes. The really valuable pieces get put in the vault.

[MHM]

I don’t know anything about jewelry, so I don’t know how valuable any of it was. But it looked like they were taking every single piece out of all the display cases and putting them away for the night.

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@BigMama1

Two things can be true at the same time. People can accept the jury’s NGRI verdict.

They can also believe the exact sequence of events involving the shooting have not been conclusively defined. Did the gun go off in a struggle and hit LK? Did MB get attacked by LK or RF or did he attack them? We. Don’t. Know.

We likely never will know so we accept the decision, but wonder if it would have been more clear had the police performed even the most basic elements of their job.

The jury accepted the defense’s affirmative case that MB was delusional. However, if the prosecutor had not established beyond a reasonable doubt that MB had shot her (as opposed to self defense or accident), they were instructed to return a verdict of NG, as they did wrt the charges related to RG.

On the two charges related to LK, why did the jury return NGRI instead on NG, unless they were convinced that the prosecutor proved his case beyond a reasonable doubt?

No no no no no no. That’s not how this works.

[trubandloki]

You are wasting your time @Knights_Mom. You can say that over and over and over again and because they do not want to know it they will never get it.

[Knights_Mom]

@trubandloki

You are wasting your time @Knights_Mom. You can say that over and over and over again and because they do not want to know it they will never get it.

I know. But if no one disputes this others come to believe it. This happens in politics all the time as of late.

[jvanrens]

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@BigMama1

Two things can be true at the same time. People can accept the jury’s NGRI verdict.

They can also believe the exact sequence of events involving the shooting have not been conclusively defined. Did the gun go off in a struggle and hit LK? Did MB get attacked by LK or RF or did he attack them? We. Don’t. Know.

We likely never will know so we accept the decision, but wonder if it would have been more clear had the police performed even the most basic elements of their job.

The jury accepted the defense’s affirmative case that MB was delusional. However, if the prosecutor had not established beyond a reasonable doubt that MB had shot her (as opposed to self defense or accident), they were instructed to return a verdict of NG, as they did wrt the charges related to RG.

On the two charges related to LK, why did the jury return NGRI instead on NG, unless they were convinced that the prosecutor proved his case beyond a reasonable doubt?

No no no no no no. That’s not how this works.

Funny (not in a ha ha sort of way) that LK says the same thing?

[Knights_Mom]

@jvanrens

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@BigMama1

Two things can be true at the same time. People can accept the jury’s NGRI verdict.

They can also believe the exact sequence of events involving the shooting have not been conclusively defined. Did the gun go off in a struggle and hit LK? Did MB get attacked by LK or RF or did he attack them? We. Don’t. Know.

We likely never will know so we accept the decision, but wonder if it would have been more clear had the police performed even the most basic elements of their job.

The jury accepted the defense’s affirmative case that MB was delusional. However, if the prosecutor had not established beyond a reasonable doubt that MB had shot her (as opposed to self defense or accident), they were instructed to return a verdict of NG, as they did wrt the charges related to RG.

On the two charges related to LK, why did the jury return NGRI instead on NG, unless they were convinced that the prosecutor proved his case beyond a reasonable doubt?

No no no no no no. That’s not how this works.

Funny (not in a ha ha sort of way) that LK says the same thing?

Yeah but I don’t lie on social media and didn’t use a “Mkay” to sound imperious!

[jvanrens]

@Knights_Mom

Yeah but I don’t lie on social media and didn’t use a “Mkay” to sound imperious!

I didn’t mean that! LOL I meant the still being guilty, because NGRI doesn’t mean not guilty. I have no reason to believe you are telling whoppers.

[Knights_Mom]

LOL I know LK equates NGRI as the same as Guilty but insane when it is not.

[DQHubby]

Perhaps everyone should read what the New Jersey court has to say on the verdict of NGRI. NGRI verdict means that the jury found that the prosecutor proved the case against the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt, the defendant is guilty of the charges, but the defense also proved the defendant was insane at the time of the crime. http://www.njcourts.gov/attorneys/assests/criminalcharges/respons1.doc

[avjudge]

“Page not found”

[BigMama1]

Given the evidence that was allowed to be presented, the jury made the right call IMO. They believe MB was the shooter and that there was no intent, due to his mental condition.

However remember the defense was not allowed to present alternate theories due to MB’s inability to testify to them. It is very plausible that he was attacked and pulled the trigger in self defence, or that the gun went off in a struggle. Without any forensics, video, or competent police work we will never know for sure.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@DQHubby

Perhaps everyone should read what the New Jersey court has to say on the verdict of NGRI. NGRI verdict means that the jury found that the prosecutor proved the case against the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt, the defendant is guilty of the charges, but the defense also proved the defendant was insane at the time of the crime. http://www,njcourts.gov/attorneys/assests/criminalcharges/respons1.doc

Exactly.

[smoofox]

I think the two star witnesses rather muddied up the “beyond a reasonable doubt”… considering that NGRI is only used in 1 % of all criminal proceedings… and the success rate of that is somewhere around 25% of that 1%.

So against all odds, the jury saw behind the curtain… and did not like what they saw. So NGRI and not Guilty of Murder - as LK has been trumpeting all over SM.

[Knights_Mom]

@DQHubby

Perhaps everyone should read what the New Jersey court has to say on the verdict of NGRI. NGRI verdict means that the jury found that the prosecutor proved the case against the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt, the defendant is guilty of the charges, but the defense also proved the defendant was insane at the time of the crime. http://www,njcourts.gov/attorneys/assests/criminalcharges/respons1.doc

This gets tiresome.

MB was not found guilty of shooting anyone.

His disposition is not Guilty but insane.

His verdict was not guilty because in order for the shooting to be rendered a crime there had to be 2 necessary elements: mens rea and actus reus.

Those 2 elements were both not there. One was missing. Missing due to his mental condition.

Edited for clarity.

[FitzE]

@BigMama1

However remember the defense was not allowed to present alternate theories due to MB’s inability to testify to them. It is very plausible that he was attacked and pulled the trigger in self defence, or that the gun went off in a struggle. Without any forensics, video, or competent police work we will never know for sure.

Exactly

[FitzE]

@Knights_Mom

@trubandloki

You are wasting your time @Knights_Mom. You can say that over and over and over again and because they do not want to know it they will never get it.

I know. But if no one disputes this others come to believe it. This happens in politics all the time as of late.

The other thing that happens in politics all the time as of late: lying, being caught and exposed lying, not acknowledging or apologising for the lying, and just blundering forth acting as though nothing happened with no shame or shred of decency or scruples expecting decent people to interact with you as though you weren’t a big, exposed liar.

[Knights_Mom]

The Missing Element

[hut-ho78]

I think terms are being used incorrectly. In New Jersey, not guilty by reason of insanity can be abbreviated as NGI. Some are using NGRI. They appear to mean the same thing. Some states have a guilty but mentally ill (GBMI) which sends the defendant off to the regular prison system. New Jersey does not appear to have a GBMI.

NGRI or NGI is still an affirmative defense where a defendant did the deed that would normally be crime but is not criminally liable and will not be considered an ex-convict. However, that does not mean that there are not significant potential limitations to that person ever being released or released without condition. Yes, there has to be review boards. Yes, that person has their rights as any other citizen institutionalized for being a danger to oneself or others but they are different in that they actually harmed or tried to harm themselves or others. Because of that, they are often stigmatized as anyone approving their release is aware of what they have already done and how dangerous they were. They are often institutionalized for twice as long as they would be had they been found guilty. However, if they ever are released without condition, they are a full citizen with full rights restored.

2018 New Jersey Revised Statutes :: Title 2C - THE NEW JERSEY CODE OF...

n200812a.pdf

[Knights_Mom]

It’s a 2 prong defense. Deciding a mental state is just one part of it.