I still have PTSD from going thru this with my TB. Strangely he was alpha in the herd. We boarded but I can imagine it would be worse at home where there are only 2 horses. It never got better. He was a bolting wound up mess going away and coming back to the barn. Oddly it got much better when I moved him to a new boarding facility. But it was horrible and dangerous and you have my sympathy.
Yea but I’m not a horse.
I don’t want the relationship between me and my horse to be a similar to one between my horse and a bossier horse. Dominance theory can get things done but I personally think it’s just a cruel and lazy way to train horses and the people who use it are just people who aren’t skilled enough to do any real training so they pop in some Clinton Anderson/ Pat Parelli DVDs.
Now, now before you throw the baby out with the bathwater, remember that having a good boss mare also provides a horse with peace and security. I am sure these guys talk about that and show you some. But too much of the time, the security a horse gains because you earn his trust gets lost. People don’t realize that that’s the benefit to the horse and the thing that makes him want to be with you if he’s going to have to leave his happy herd and pasture anyway. There really is a pay-off for the horse.
I’ll barely comment on the two guys and the DVDs you mention other than to say you make a straw man argument. I don’t think Clinton and Parelli as we see them in their DVDs and public demos are good trainers. I also don’t think DVDs or distance training are a good way to train people to train horses. I know folks like Warwick Schiller and know about him because of his videos. But I think the value of his help from a distance will be limited. If you are a really good horseman already, you could probably gain some a conceptual kind of knowledge from him. Heck, that’s what we are doing here. But to really read your own horse and react with the right timing and response to your horse in the moment so as to have a useful conversation with that horse? IME, that requires a live lesson with a good pro.
Last but not least, I had more more comment to make, which I hope will help the OP. It puts my long suggestion and way of looking at her mare’s behavior into context. Abbie.S, who suggested taking the mare away just as far as her comfort zone would allow her was, I think, on the right track because her method was deeply tied to the mare’s state of mind and was intended to change that such that the mare felt safe when her buddy was out of sight. I wanted the same thing, but I had a different and “more invasive” way to get that. The whole thing was tied to the mare’s feeling safe, but I want the horse’s sense of security to come from me, not the situation, so that we can extrapolate and the horse will go anywhere and do as I ask because “I said so,” but also because I had earned some credibility with her.
And not for nuthin’, but BeeHoney was right, too: Life is short and this whole situation would be helped if the two horses on the place lived apart. IMO, that means the mare is working out some of this "OMG, how do I survive alone in the world without my herd) on her own time.
But they don’t feel “peace and security” from being bossed around, that’s a myth and really dated thinking. Horses can get ulcers when they’re living with a pasture bully. On the outside things look fine they can internalize that stress too. Mark rashid had a great point in one of his books about how horses don’t always just follow the most aggressive horse, they do sometimes but they follow the “passive leaders” more often and more willingly. These are the ones that lead by example and only use force when appropriate to correct mistakes. I think horses are much more at peace with these types of herd leaders rather than the pasture bullies.
Also the idea of the “boss mare” just isn’t true. She’s not really the “boss.” She doesn’t dictate what everyone else in the herd does she just priority to the resources. So if there’s a pile of hay and another horse is eating it she may make them move so she can have that resource. Same thing with shelter and water. But that’s the extent of her “boss” abilities. She doesn’t control anything other than who she shares resources with. Once the other horses are off of that resource, she doesn’t care or control what they do.
I personally really don’t agree with separating buddy sour horses. I don’t think it does anything to help them get over the anxiety it just teaches them to internalize it. Again, another reason that horses that live alone tend to get ulcers. I think it’s much more valuable to take the time to teach the horse how to relax and teach them how to be confident. I think the separation plan is a bandaid.
So, how was your older mare ‘alone’ before the 3 yr old? Any reason you chose such a young horse for a ‘companion’? 3 yr old seems pretty young to ask them to be settled, wise and independent. Just because she ‘seems’ that way doesn’t mean she’s not, in her way (‘alpha’ as you explain it–) controlling your older mare with her less experienced attitude.
Most importantly—there are endless threads on why ‘just two’ won’t work. its really nothing new if you want to ride and school and especially ride or haul out. I have a sectioned off 12 ft wide ‘run’ piece of the sacrifice area. this area has no climb to the ground…and is for my mini to be able to be out/insight/in adjoining area when one of two of my horses is on the other. This allows separation feeding of hay, etc. often, I will allow mini in with big guy with her graze muzzle on for some controlled time grass turnout. You can adjust your space to feed a small companion separately. No matter WHAT training you proceed with it will make it easier and less of a fight to establish.----and separating and rotating those areas and times will always be a continuous MUST do to allow them to become comfortable with being apart.
The tool that I find works for me is slowly condition them that its they won’t die when they are separated. But it takes time. I literally ride one away from the other repeatedly and gradually increase the distance. Its tougher with two, but it can still be useful especially if you leave the one staying home with food. When we bought our farm, it was just the two at home with a sudden velcro attachment. I rode the perimeter of the field (700m loop) for a up to couple hours at a time, at a walk, until she’d let it go. Then we’d trot/canter a bit a couple loops on the away portions and always walk in the portions toward and beside her buddy. Finish, repeat the next day etc, etc. Eventually it was no big deal, though I always maintained careful discipline about pace in the direction of home.
I use the same method every single spring with my young horse after the horses have had time off and the herd has gotten bound fairly tightly. Ride into the field away from the crew to the point of mild stress, turn and walk back. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat until they’re bored with that distance scenario. Do it the next day, go the distance of mild stress and repeat. The distance will increase over time. Eventually just riding out to the fields is no big deal again with the confidence that they won’ t get eaten re-installed. They don’t have to love being out alone, but they do have to understand that they won’t die and that you’ve got this.
Its horses YMMV, but its a method that works for me.
I don’t think horses get peace from being bossed around. I do think they get peace from someone (man or beast) who has established her credibility with them. That means you have to be judicious and “right” in your interactions with the horse a lot of the time. As I wrote above, the “bossing” isn’t the money shot at all.
Had a buddy sour issue with a leased gelding who fell for a mare in their mixed herd. Trail rides involved dragging his feet and spinning on the way out, and jigging and screaming on the way home. Arena rides were rigid and screamy too. So fun. Moved him elsewhere into a solo pen (horses visible but not sharing a spade) and those antics stopped. Not my horse so did what the owner suggested and it worked.
I had this issue with my guy when we moved to a new barn. A few rides in the arena spent calling to his pasture buddies and rushing in their direction had me livid. I decided to haul out for the next week of rides to a local trail system. My goal was to make him completely dependent on me, away from barn, buddies, and anything familiar. We started the first day by just eating, grooming and hand walking at the park. Day 2 we rode the trails, and continued on like this through the week. On one of the days he started calling even though there were no other horses on the trail. When we returned to the parking lot, about a mile away, there stood a group of horses from our barn. While he neighed on the trail, he never rushed or got out of line. Smart guy, I have to say. I was ok with that. He’s allowed to have an opinion.
For me, making a big change worked. I wasn’t interested in being less important than his herd, so taking him out of his comfort zone where he only had me to rely on shifted “our herd” dynamic.
Good luck!