I’m at a bit of a loss at what to do here and really need some COTH wisdom. I have 2 horses at home, both OTTB mares one new horse (3yr old) and my 15yr old horse who I’ve had for10 years. The 3yr old is the alpha in their two horse herd and is fairly secure about herself (doesn’t call, pace or otherwise seem to worry when the older mare is gone). The 15yr old has turned into a nightmare. She is okay to handle on the ground - respectful and listens but always on the look out for the other mare.
I took the older mare out on a hack yesterday (we ride down the road to a park to flat in and then back) and she was good for about 15-20 minutes then all hell broke loose. Bolting, balking, jigging, rearing, broncing, you name a bad behavior and she was trying it. I tried walking and halting and letting her settle which didn’t work, walking towards the exit and when she would misbehave turn around and walk away from the exit. Nothing I could think of helped. I eventually dismounted as I genuinely feared for my safety and she was fine when I was on the ground (she was “up” but not being pushy or disrespectful just about 2 hands taller than normal with wide eyes).
Obviously this behavior is NOT OKAY in any way. She is/ was fine to ride on property (re-checking that this evening) and has been fine at the park until yesterday. That was the second time I rode her there since the 3yr old has been home. The other time was a short well behaved ride. The 15yr old will stall walk/ pace if stalled while the 3yr old is out but seems fine to be out while 3yr old is in. They were previously out/ in together with an hour or two of separation a day.
As of last night they are completely separated with one in with the barn door closed and the other out. I don’t want to keep them separated indefinitely as part of the “point” of buying the 3yr old was for her to be a companion to the older mare. I also only have one sacrifice/ dry lot/ winter turnout and currently all of the good weather/ grazing paddocks share a fence line so there is now way to separate them and have them both out (I believe they should be out as close to 24/7 as possible). I also started this morning by “working” the older mare next to the young mare and then taking the older mare to the barn and letting her rest and getting pats and treats. I’m trying my best to make being alone / alone with me pleasant and being together not as fun. Please help!
I know this isn’t super helpful, but have you thought about having a coach or a horse savvy friend meet you at the park for a lesson? Having someone on the ground may help you as a rider, but perhaps settle the horse a bit as you said once you were off she was more relaxed.
I’m confused about why you are attributing her behavior to being “barn/buddy sour.” You said she was good for the first 15-20 minutes of the ride. It seems like buddy sourness would show up right away–she wouldn’t want to leave your property. Is it possible something alarmed her at the park (could be something you may not even have noticed) and she basically was spooking/panicking?
@Horsegirl’s Mom I believe it was barb/ buddy sourness for a few reasons: she was melting down whenever I wouldn’t let her jig/ bolt out of the park/ towards home and was continually trying to take off in the direction of home. It could be that the first bit of our ride was trotting and cantering and she thought she was done and allowed to leave when we were walking (I did try cantering/ trotting again after walking was unsuccessful and stopped after she began to bolt/ lose control at speed). She is not a spooky horse (not that she can’t spook, it’s just very abnormal for her) and was very focused on “home” (or at least the direction of it) the entire time. We’ve been riding in the park for almost a year now without issue. She displays buddy sourness/ separation issues at home with calling out / pacing (though not to an extreme) when the she is not in the same space as the 3 yr old.
What a cowboy told me is that you have to keep galloping them forward while they misbehave. They are not allowed to stop until you tell them too. You have to become the alpha. It takes guts and skill to do this. You have to be able to stay on. Once you start feeling scared or apprehensive, the horse picks up on it and will misbehave more. Keeping the brain moving forward is the only way to fix this. Do not analyze or get emotional. Think forward, forward, forward at all times.Do you have a calm cowboy type that can help you?
This is a challenging problem. I have had horses at home that have had this kind of separation anxiety issue. Warwick Schiller has some good YouTube videos that have concepts to use for this kind of horse. Unfortunately, separation anxiety takes some work. Good luck!
I’d get a third horse/goat/whatever. If you only have two, this behavior is going to crop up over and over, and if the horse at home is really losing their cookies too can land you with a big vet bill.
As far as the barn/buddy sour issue, if they want to act out and try to go home, they get to work work work. Small figures, so they can’t get the momentum to do something really dumb. Going away from home, they get to walk/rest. If it gets too ugly, I don’t blame you one bit for getting off. I’d keep the training going though (fixate on home = work, away from home = easy), and step back on if/when you feel it safe to do so.
Barn/buddy sour is the most dangerous habit a horse can pick up (IMO). When they get to that panic mode, they don’t care who they hurt.
I think this can be common when people only have 2-3 horses at home. I just moved 3 home and the first week they were a little worried when one was out of sight but they’ve gotten over it now. I think routine is the key. They need to know that they leave, then they come back. That might only be 3 minutes at first, but you can gradually extend their time apart.
My older gelding is the worst about it, but he’s realizing that he works harder when his friends are in sight, and gets to mosey along when he’s further away from the herd. But again, I keep the routine the same every ride. Two get locked in the dry lot, the third gets taken for a ride, when we’re in sight of the other two we’re working hard, when we get further away they get a break.
How long have you had the second horse? Did you just have the older horse alone before? It sounds like this behavior is somewhat new…?
Silly you for thinking there are hard rules for these things. Horses take great pride in not following rules.
I have one that does something similar (sometimes). She is fine leaving home/her friend at first and then gets frantic about it on the way home. The closer we get to home the more frantic she gets. It seems that the more her companion at home screams for her, the more upset the one I am riding gets.
Some days we can work thru it and other days she has no brain at all.
It is very much the same reaction that I get when we are out (trucked somewhere) and her riding buddy gets out of site.
“Dominance” theory and being “the alpha” are extremely dated training methods that don’t always work. I completely disagree with this approach. I think good training takes patience and understanding and not just pressure until they get over it. Also if the horse is hot on the way back “pushing forward” won’t help you that much. I think good training takes time and that you need the horse to build up confidence.
I agree with dominance theory being outdated and likely not the best approach, especially when she is already that worked up.
Currently a third horse is out of the question, but I have been trying to figure out a possible non-equine companion. Donks and cows (mini and regular) are out due to noise (we have close neighbors and we ourselves don’t want to listen to mooing/ braying). I’d prefer not to get a mini as they seem to almost always need a very strict diet which wouldn’t work with being out with my horses who get free choice alfalfa. I also don’t know if a 3rd would help at all as the issue isn’t either one being left behind (they will call maybe once or twice but then settle and eat the hay) but more so being handled away from or even in sight of but separate from the other.
This is totally new behavior, yes. Over 10 yrs and many boarding situations with the older mare she has never had any issue even close to this before. She has always been very pleasant to ride out alone or in groups. She was previously at home alone (and by golly if we could go back to that) and was mostly doing well but the lack of companionship seemed to be showing (decrease in appetite over some months and some extreme/ bizarre behavior when she was injured several months ago).
If it comes down to it, I will board or sell the 3 yr old. I can’t/ won’t have this behavior. I am really hoping to find a way for them to deal without keeping them separated all the time. I’m going to keep working them when “together” or in sight of each other and making time away from each other pleasant (hand grazing, some treats and grooming/ scratches). Hopefully we will make some progress.
ETA - New horse has been home for about 3 weeks now, so still new! I am not sure how older mare will do being trailered and ridden away from home (again normally she is just fine/ very pleasant, but we haven’t done so since bringing new horse home). I’m hoping to set aside some time on Sunday to do just that and see how it goes.
OP I also second checking out Warwick Schiller’s stuff on separation anxiety. IMO, separation anxiety comes from a horse that’s just insecure about being by themselves. That’s why she’s acting spooky when she’s separated despite not normally being the spooky type. In order to fix that you have to take some time to convince them them that they can go out by themselves and be fine and live to tell the tale.
In order to do that I would do very brief “trail rides” frequently and ensure the horse has a good experience. If you try to go out for a trail ride and you spend the first part of the ride kicking and kicking just to get him leave the barn, and then she’s anxious and spooking the whole time, and then on the way back you’re holding her back because she’s about to take off for home, she’s not having a good time. She’s not having an experience that’s going to inspire confidence and make her want to leave her friend again any time soon.
Id first practice doing this on the ground with her on a lead line and you just walking. If she’s anxious about that, having her leave her buddy under saddle is just going to be harder for both of you so just take the baby steps. When you leave I’d make sure that you are staying below her anxiety threshold. You want to go for a little walk and push her just a tiny bit out of her comfort zone but still mostly relaxed even if that’s only half way down your driveway. Walk a little ways away and just let her hand graze and give her some treats. Every day just do a little more until she learns that leaving her friend isn’t so bad and that the world won’t end. If you don’t push her way out of her comfort zone she’ll relax and trust you and won’t feel so alone.
And for the friend stuck at home, I’d give him an extra flake of hay or some sort of treat so that he also learns when he’s alone good things happen.
Well, the reason for buddy sour “behavior” is pretty simple, as is the solution, it’s just honestly that A) the majority of horse people cannot or will not put in the time to help the horse get right, or B) they don’t have the “guts” or intestinal fortitude to ride out some of the hard stuff. Not saying this is you, OP, but that’s the reality I’ve discovered in my workings with many a herd-bound horse.
Buddy sour/barn sour is simple that you have taken the horse away from where they are still residing mentally. It’s akin to the anxiety one might feel on a Friday afternoon at work: you’re brain is already at home on the couch with a glass of wine, but you’re body is stuck in the office. Horses live in the present - they must in order to survive as prey animals, so they don’t have a built-in concept of being able to focus when they feel so torn mentally from where they are physically forced to be. Your older mare is still mentally back home with her new friend but physically has been taken away from there. In her mind, it’s dangerous to be separated in this way and so she’s doing what she must to get back to feeling safe.
I would still take her out away from the younger mare, but you need to do so in increments. Ride her out away from the other horse at a walk until you the first moment you feel her start to get bunched up, balky or hesitant. Then turn her and head back for home. Once she lets down and relaxes (which may not happen until she gets all the way back the first few times), turn her back and head away again and feel for when she starts to get hesitant again, then turn her back until she gets relaxed. Rinse, repeat, as much as it takes. Set your sights on going a bit further from home each time but don’t force her to do so. You’re looking for her to realize that every time she leaves, she can be okay and that if she is not, you will notice and help her to get okay again. Eventually she’ll understand YOU are what helps her feel better, not the younger horse, and you’ll be surprised one day when you just keep on going without worry or concern.
This is how I work with herd-bound horses and it’s not yet failed. It takes serious time with some horses, others get comfortable fairly quickly. I don’t encourage people to work the dickens out of horses when it comes to herd-bound issues because the horse ALREADY doesn’t want to be with you in that moment. The focus here needs to be on showing the horse they can be okay with YOU at all times; I have found that working them harder is overly focused on “making the wrong thing hard” instead of “the right thing easy” and tends to create horses who resign to work because they don’t see any other choice. Allowing the horse to realize they can be okay with you no matter where they are and CHOOSE that option is so much more powerful.
I assume this is the same 15-year old mare you posted about being suddenly spooky in June? Was that spookiness resolved? I found the thread searching for an issue I’m having with my mare, and then noticed that you also started this thread.
Yes, but you can also make this point long-lining them. As I get older and smarter, I become a better horsewoman but I also become more risk-averse.
OP, when you said she was “fine” on the ground, but then described her as up, big-eyed, two-hands taller, I think you missed something. She may have been acceptably under control in her body, but she was not either submissive or secure with you in her mind. If I had been in your spot, I would have done ground work with her (even if I had to do that in a bridle) until she was very attentive to me. It might have taken some time. It will have taken more time if you have not done this with her at home and taught her just how much focus on you earns her a break.
At 15 and having been your horse for a decade, she knows she needs to be rideable. She perhaps was mentally able and/or wiling to do that for the busier first part of the ride. But I think you are right that she got her own free will back when she had a break which she thought was the end of your work, and that’s why she decided to tell you that you were wrong to keep her out there. I think you can cure the buddy sour thing, but you have your work cut out for you with just two horses on the place and this mare being the second to the three-year-old. That’s because, in this older mare’s mind, she’s losing something important if she can’t be with her alpha mare. In other words, she’ll “go to the wall” to get you to let her run home because the stakes are high. She has decided this and once you say, “No,” and she’s already amped up, she counts you as part of the frightening problem, rather than the source of peace and focus on you as the solution.
In your spot, I would start at home and, whatever work I did with her, demand focus. I don’t know if you can do this while riding to the park, but the same would apply: Anything other than walking forward, away from the barn with her ears up and minimal hand- and leg contact from you earns her a firmer, more directing ride. This doesn’t have to be fast. It can be transitions, changing the bend, changing direction, lateral work-- just anything that brings her mind back to you if it wanders.
I would line drive her to the park if I could and see if she could maintain her focus on you there, too. Line driving is great because you can decide how much they get to see you (as in on a circle and double-lunging or long-lining) or they don’t and just have to take demands from you behind them. The point is that they have to stay “with you” no matter how distant you are from them. The other cool thing is that their hurling themselves around is not your physical problem.
I would break my work into parts, as you did on this day, so that she and I had more than one chance to work on her losing her focus on you and then putting it back on you. You might have some rides or ground work sessions away from home where you have to spend a long, long time demanding her attention. Don’t get mad or lose faith in the process. Just keep her doing work (transitions if you are under saddle or lots of changes of direction and backing up if you are on the ground) until she applies herself to the job at hand. In other words, you need to teach her that you replace her mare leader when she is with you.
You want to reward her with a break when she focuses on you, but be sure to keep her “with you” mentally by petting her and watching her body language. She should stay relaxed with her head straight ahead and her neck level. Imagine the posture of a horse who has just galloped and wants to catch his breath. That’s the body you want. If, during your break, she picks up her head to look for her herd mate, or to look around with any intensity (being alive and aware of her surroundings is OK), know that you have lost her focus. You have to gain that by giving her a job to do that brings her focus back to your set of demands.
You don’t have to be hard on her when you put her back to work. Ask her for something small like two steps backward and see if she doesn’t softly give you her focus and then keeps it with that resting body posture when you drop the reins or rope afterwards and just stand there. In this case, you are now teaching her that you are her alpha mare even when you aren’t giving her the big demands of hard work. Rather, the soft ride you give her has your intention of demanding focus behind it. She can put her mind back on you when you ask softly, or she can be put back to hard work. It’s her call.
At home, I’d practice building her mental discipline and maybe even some “self-soothing” practice by tying her up while you ride the younger mare. I’d do this initially within her sight. She might not like being restrained while she sees her alpha mare maybe leave. But that’s too damn bad, and she can work it out with time and a simple situation by herself just what do do about that. When she gets good at this, try riding the other mare out of sight. Or put your tie your mare somewhere she feels secure, like her stall, and have her buddy leave. This is a common practice among Western colt starters and it offers a nice, easy (for the human), low-mileage way to teach a horse to manage his emotions when nothing about his situation is going to change.
Again, your work with getting your mare to focus back on you will be helped if she has developed the mental skill of “talking herself back down off the ledge” prior to you asking her to do that in the “battle conditions” of asking her to work a second time far away from her herd mate (I hope you can see the eye roll in here, LOL).
Hope this helps! It will take some time. But the more you can be meticulous about asking for her focus when you handle- and ride her in all situations, the more you build her mental habit of focusing on the person she’s with.
Honestly, I think really the best way to handle this is separation on a more long term basis, for at least a significant portion of the time. What you describe is what very commonly happens when people keep only two (or three) horses together. People think it will be perfect because obviously horses need friends, but in a 2-3 horse situation, it is extremely likely that at least one of the horses is going to become ridiculously herd bound and mentally dependent on their friend.
Other people have good training points, but I’m older and perhaps lazier (or value my time and energy differently) I have no desire to battle through this nonsense unless it is absolutely necessary. I would rather separate the horses and let the buddy sour horse work through it’s issues on its own.
Another vote for checking out Warwick Schiller’s current ideas on separation anxiety. He has changed his approach in the last few years - I think videos from around 2018 and forward will be most helpful.
Watch how horses deal with each other. There is no patience and understanding. Horses are not human and pushing forward just means keeping their brain forward, focusing on you. Confidence is knowing where their place is in the herd, even if the herd is just you and them. You have to be in charge. However, everyone has their own approach and I can respect that.
