Barn/Buddy sour horse, help needed

[Kaucos]

Hello all!

I have a lovely little 9yo ottb mare, who has gotten really barn/buddy sour. She is an absolute saint and perfect under saddle when ridden in the attached indoor (any time of day, any turn out schedule), but becomes a nightmare when we try to ride outside. Outdoor arena is about 500ft from the barn, and surrounded by pastures on 3 sides.
Mare will refuse to move forward, will offer to rear. She’s obviously anxious, calling out to friends, head shaking. We have spent A LOT of time on the ground out there and even after an hour (and lots of treats) she just will not calm down. I have tried riding her outside in a large group (4-5 other horses), just one other (a turnout buddy of hers), and completely alone. Both when no other horses are turned out, and when they are.
She’s perfect when riding inside immediately before and after attempting to go outside. She also rushes the gate and bolts when being turned out - so more buddy sour issues

Tips? Tricks? Perfect prep? Never ride outside again?

[thoroughbred22]

How long has the horse been in this specific environment? Long enough to feel secure and call it home, or just a couple of months?

One approach is to make the outside boring. Ignore the calling to buddies, ignore any little jiggies and joggies in hand. Just take her out and do some familiar exercises: back up, side pass, small circles. Daily. Over and over, giving her a moment of zen when she is quiet.

Good luck, from another lover of OTTB’s!

[JB]

Is there space to do some ridden work, even just walking, between the indoor and the outdoor? How is she right next to but not inside the indoor? If Yes, and Fine, then start there. Ride some in the indoor, then spend a couple minutes right outside it. Repeat often. When she is totally fine right next to the indoor, move 50’ further out, and repeat. It’s all about acclimation and just pushing the comfort zone, retreating to comfort before she gets worked up.

For the turnout thing - 2 halters, and treats. Feed treats as you’re taking the first halter off, and be ready to hold her if she tries to bolt. Also, if you can walk her some distance into the pasture, then take the halter off, that can stop the bolting. I’ve used all 3 of these.

The treats at the gate before turning loose has them staying put until I walk away.

The 2 halters is obviously teaching them that just because A halter is coming off doesn’t mean they can lose their mind.

And in situations where everyone’s hyped up and ready to bolt for the hills simply walking them up the hill and turning them loose turns it into a No Big Deal.

[NancyM]

A “barn sour” or “buddy sour” horse is one who feels that their relationship with their equine friends is more important than their relationship with their human. YOU have to become more “important” to your horse in the relationship you have with the horse. YOU must be the person your horse needs you to be. You must be the most important, powerful and respected and loved animal that your horse has ever met. The “benevolent dictator”. The most influential, intelligent, best communicator, you must earn your horse’s respect, above all other animals that the horse knows or has met before in their life. When you attain this position in your horse’s opinion, your horse will forget all their other friends and acquaintances when they are with you. HOW you attain this position is what you need to pursue. You don’t get it by punishing the horse, or being rough. You don’t get it by being a treat machine. IMO, you DO get it by being a good communicator, being fair, being honest. Looking for cue, response, and release, and appreciation for that response. This is horse training.

Horses for beginners or green riders/handlers take on a superior role, looking after the human, interpreting bungled or confused cues. Green horses or troubled horses, or especially “needy” or insecure horses need their human to be skilled, experienced, exacting, and fair.

Good luck!

[Bogie]

@JB

The 2 halters is obviously teaching them that just because A halter is coming off doesn’t mean they can lose their mind.

I have used the two halter method with great success. Surprised the heck out of my gelding the first time, but he figured out pretty quickly he had to wait until he was released.

With a barn sour horses, what’s worked for me is 1) ground driving (long lining), so that I can react, safely to a balking horse and 2) gradually de-sensitizing. If a horse is reluctant to leave (or be left), I start with short periods of time. My TB was fine with leaving other horses but had a major meltdown if left by his pasturemate, even if another horse was next to him. We started by leaving for only a few minutes and gradually increased the time we were out of sight. It took time, but it worked and he learned to self soothe.

[JB]

@NancyM

You don’t get it by being a treat machine.

No, but appropriate use of treats can accomplish a lot of good things in the beginning. If they aren’t so far “gone” that they can’t appreciate a treat, that’s one thing. But if they’re present enough to you, but wildly distracted as well, a treat can get them to lower their head (the opposite of flight/fright mode), and chew (a soothing pattern). And it gets them focused on you for even a split second.

When my homebred was young, I had to teach him he was going to survive just fine being the last one put/let out, no matter how wildly the others ran up and over the hill out of sight. At first, all he had to do was come to me at the inside stall door for 1 treat, then he could run back to the outside door, and I would let him out. Being very food-motivated, he quickly realized that I was a much better thing than worrying about where the others went, and at one point I wouldn’t get him away from the inside door to come out the open outside door Then when he walked out he looked for me, came to me, and by that point I wasn’t even giving treats anymore.

Treats are totally approrpriate in the right situations, and as long as the goal is to move away from them. They can be a very beneficial bridge between what the horse wants to do and what you want him to do

They are great for rewarding the horse for doing the right thing

[4horses]

Which particular horse is she buddy sour towards? I’m not sure she’s buddy sour vs barn sour? Barn sour horses prefer the safety and security of being in the barn/enclosed area. Does she spend much time in turnout?

I think my approach would be to put this horse with just one buddy in turnout, preferably near the outdoor arena. No more barn access at all. Not for feeding or anything. She needs to be outside and acting like a horse. It sounds like she is severely uncomfortable/stressed being outside of the barn and needs to learn that it is okay to be outside. If she is turned out with just one buddy, that buddy needs to go with her when she is ridden. If she is ignoring her buddy then you definitely have something else going on then just buddy sour issues. Or is she craving the safety of a herd?

I had one severely buddy sour horse and that was why he was free on craigslist. He is now a companion horse for someone else because he cannot be seperated without running the fence for several hours and pouring sweat. If you trailer off, he will still be running when you get back home. Paced for 48 hours straight when I brought him home. He was neurotic and I don’t think all the training in the world is going to fix that level of anxiety. He could not be 40 feet from another horse. My boss mare recognized that he was unstable and she hated him to the point I had to keep her away from him for his safety. She was ready to kick the fence down to go attack him. He is perfectly happy as a companion to an old horse and they are never separated.

Most horses aren’t as bad as that and you can manage it- but he was going to give himself heatstroke with all that running.

I would probably try ulcer medication (it can’t hurt anything) and see if it helps with her anxiety.

What if you feed her in the arena? Does she still react to being out of sight of her buddies?

[NancyM]

There is a big difference between a “treat machine” and “payment and appreciation for work done”. A "treat machine is just someone who thinks they can buy the horse’s love by continually supplying treats, or supplying treats on demand. Big difference from showing appreciation for work done… that grows a bond and understanding. Yes, supplying a treat is a powerful motivator for a horse, as it is for any animal including human animals. But how and when it is given makes a big difference.

[Kaucos]

Thank you everyone for the thoughtful responses!

@thoroughbred22 How long has the horse been in this specific environment?

She has been here since November, but did something similar at our last barn which we at for 2 years. I was able to just ride her through it and eventually it was okay. But I’d rather actually fix the problem.

@JB Is there space to do some ridden work, even just walking, between the indoor and the outdoor? How is she right next to but not inside the indoor? … For the turnout thing - 2 halters,

Ok, definitely trying the two halters thing. That’s genius. But there is space to ride from the indoor to outdoor. I will for sure try this, but I am worried (afraid) of how she acts under saddle whens stressed since the ground is gravel (aka not a soft spot to land) but maybe I’m overthinking it haha

@4horses Which particular horse is she buddy sour towards? I’m not sure she’s buddy sour vs barn sour? Barn sour horses prefer the safety and security of being in the barn/enclosed area. Does she spend much time in turnout?

She is currently turned out with 4 other mares, she’s the boss of her herd. Turned out overnight, and only inside about 8am-4pm (for feeding). Unfortunately, I can’t change where or how she is fed/turned out (could change groups?) due to boarding situation. I don’t know if she’s buddy vs barn sour, because she’s still anxious when her friends are also being ridden in the same arena with us. Maybe a mix of both? Feels safe in the barn, but also craving herd safety?