Barn Owner lies to kids about shipping old/lame horses to Auctions

[Venture_Cat]

@beowulf

Unfortunately, I think this practice is very common. It was when I was younger, and while I think a lot of traders have been pushed out of business, it does seem like a practice that is still alive and well in some of the less affluent areas. When I was in NY, I went to the Unadilla auctions a few times with some local friends who recognized horses from local schools and camps.

As a kid, I took lessons at a barn that did this - they would get a fresh string of horses every so often, the ones that worked stayed in the program and were loved by the kids - the ones that didn’t were discretely loaded out back and dumped/sold at auction while the BO would say they had gone to another home/friend/whatever.

My mother intercepted one such horse (a younger lesson horse she had grown to be fond of) who they had already arranged for pick up – he had been in the program a while, was being used despite not being sound, and they thought they could dispose of him quietly but she knew what his outcome would be. She begged them not to take him, gave them money, and well, the rest is history (we left that farm shortly after).

He is probably my favorite horse to have ever existed, been with us a long time too::

Thanks for sharing this! Love it! Yes-- I agree with you. Have seen some of this. Unadilla is …2hr trip north to the abattoir in Montreal.

My family has long history of ranching/farming with horses. Out West and in North. Thing strikes me is, the real old folks, like my great grandparents, they didn’t have much, didn’t have treatments/medicines/ vets—sometimes you had to do what you had to do…put a bullet in it if you couldn’t fix it. Animals bought and sold etc. But, the old times in my clan… saw the animals/horses as very valuable and hence worth working real hard to keep healthy. Losing one, or having something lose value for a sale…is a loss of income. And, I dunno, oddly enough the old timers in my fam really cared about the animals empathy wise—they wouldn’t sell to certain people, and the took pains to care for the animals as living personalities they knew—part of the family. My great granddad didn’t have any money but had his farm and his animals…He euthanized with a bullet every single one of his horses and dairy cows when they became to infirm…buried them himself. We have a animal graveyard. Thiss is a man that didn’t have a toilet or running water until 1978 and then refused to use the suspicious new fangled darn thing preferring the out house! LOL

I dunno. I guess it’s just who you are, what you grew up with, your ethics…

[Venture_Cat]

@trubandloki

Bingo!

I’m reluctant to engage in this but, I’ll say, in the case I’m referring to employees are finding it hard to accept some things they feel cross an ethical line—but are in difficult spot being able to talk to authorities regarding what might be abuse animal welfare violations (which I will not discuss and have not gone into on here) because they need the work, paid under table yada yada. It’s a murky/difficult position they are in. It is not employees just slagging off willy nilly about their employer. And they’re status/ bartering etc. might not entitle them to labor laws that protect employees/ whistleblowers.

[beowulf]

@vxf111

Beowulf, he’s adorable Your mom did a good thing

Thank you - he’s wonderful. He is what every amateur wants: sound, quiet, sensible, easy to sit/ride gaits, and ALWAYS there at the gate nickering for you. Total treat and donut hound. He’s still being ridden too - and is a great hubby/trail horse. It’s hard to imagine that 15 years ago someone was ready to ship him off to whatever uncertain fate!

I do want to point out though that many lesson barns have to have some sort of way to arrange for ‘disposing’ (for a lack of a better term) a horse that is not working for their program. Not every program has the capability to permanently house a horse for the rest of their lives, and not every client wants to house this horse either. It is common around here anyway for horses to be picked up at auction (some auctions are better/higher quality than others, BTW) or sourced through traders - and when they are no longer a compatible fit for a program, are moved along.

There are two issues: the lying to clients (which IMHO is unacceptable), and the unethical disposal of a horse. The lying thing you can’t change - if someone is a liar, they’re not going to suddenly see the light and be a better person, so it’s best to vote with your feet and go somewhere else.

Conversely, the unethical disposal of a horse… is also something that I don’t think you are going to convince someone to see the light on - people either know to do the right thing, or they know what the wrong thing is and do it anyway.

I would not have a problem with a lesson program that had turnover in their lesson horses as long as they were turned over in a diligent and ethical manner - meaning they were not just dumped at a low end auction like Unadilla after being used for 14 years in their program. It does seem you hear quite often about Dobbin being used into the ground by some program, and then sold to auction for $200 after he suffered a suspensory injury due to his workload. People suck.

Some auctions are not so bad, and the horses go for $4000-8000 and IMHO that is an appropriate way to rehome the horse. I know of a lesson program local to me that sources their horses to either a college program, a therapeutic program or to private clients when the horse is ready to step down – BUT, they are very proactive and diligent and the horses are rehomed well before they get hurt, injured, or burned out.

[EAY]

@fordtraktor

If you do euth and plan to tell the kids about it, I recommend telling the parents first and letting them break it to the kid how they want. I personally wouldn’t care but I know plenty of moms who could get pretty hot if you decided to educate their kids about death without letting them know.

Ok. Then you send out a group email and/or post it on your Facebook page, but don’t lie to the kids. I live near a large lesson barn, and thankfully the owner always takes care of his schoolies until the end. And I’ve seen kids crying as an old pony is led on the “walk”. It’s very sad but it’s reality.

This is a bit off-topic, but recently a pasture accident occurred while the teenage workers were doing the PM feeding (right before lessons started), and the horse bled to death before the vet could get there. It was awful, but we all know that horses are large, unpredictable living creatures prone to hurting themselves. If you don’t want your kids exposed to this, then take them to swimming lessons instead.

[mmeqcenter]

@trubandloki

On the other topic, I have no problem with lesson students not being told the truth about where Dobbin went. It is none of their business for starters. I do not find it wrong if the instructor does not tell them that Dobbin had gotten too lame to do lessons anymore and was euthanized and a truck came and picked up his dead body on the day that the barn is closed for lessons. Lesson kids do not need to learn this stuff this way, lesson kids do not need to deal with this stuff.

I’ll have to respectfully disagree, at least for kids over around 8 years old.
Death is part of life, and it’s important that kids know this. One of the first barns I rode at as a 13 year old told us the truth. My twin sister and I rode this one horse for a few months, only him (they didn’t have a ton of lesson horses). He had a pasture accident and had to be euthanized, and they were completely honest with us about it. I greatly appreciated it then, and I appreciate the honesty to this day.
My 11 1/2 year old dog that I have had my entire adult life, since high school, passed away two days ago. My 9-year-old niece just absolutely adores her and my other dog, and she will be devastated to find out (her mom hasn’t told her yet). But, she will be told the truth, and she will learn and grow from it.
If you’re not comfortable telling the kids the truth yourself, as the instructor or BO, then tell the parents BEFORE their next lesson and let the parents decide what to tell their kids. But don’t lie to them.

[trubandloki]

@mmeqcenter

I’ll have to respectfully disagree, at least for kids over around 8 years old.
Death is part of life, and it’s important that kids know this. One of the first barns I rode at as a 13 year old told us the truth. My twin sister and I rode this one horse for a few months, only him (they didn’t have a ton of lesson horses). He had a pasture accident and had to be euthanized, and they were completely honest with us about it. I greatly appreciated it then, and I appreciate the honesty to this day.
My 11 1/2 year old dog that I have had my entire adult life, since high school, passed away two days ago. My 9-year-old niece just absolutely adores her and my other dog, and she will be devastated to find out (her mom hasn’t told her yet). But, she will be told the truth, and she will learn and grow from it.
If you’re not comfortable telling the kids the truth yourself, as the instructor or BO, then tell the parents BEFORE their next lesson and let the parents decide what to tell their kids. But don’t lie to them.

I am not saying I would lie. I am saying I have no issue with a barn owner running their riding program not as a life lesson teaching experience for every kid there.
Not telling them where Dobbin is does not equal lying necessarily.
A simple “Dobbin is not here anymore, but Stardust is just waiting for you to ride her” is a fine answer.

Again, fine if the barn wants to work that death happens into their horsemanship portion of their training for their lesson kids. I just do not think it is wrong if a barn does not want to do this.

[Venture_Cat]

Yes I’m with you Beowulf and EAY. There are hard sides/hard things involved in horse keeping being a “horse person” owner or just lesson rider. I’m big on turning it into a learning experience. Accidents happen > hence we learn to spot obvious easily corrected accidents waiting to happen. Horses get old, infirm, injured etc. > hence we learn best practices to keep them fit/well as long as possible AND think ahead to how we would prefer to handle infirmity and death. I think this is a valid area to discuss/teach with kids. It’s a valuable life lesson in general.

I’m in the camp with folks who take efforts to find safe retirement or appropriate homes for horses rather than drop off at auction. We have more resources these days: internet sites, rescue groups, kick starter type everyone pitch in to help someone in a pinch etc.

There’s always going to be the unsavory seedy sides of horse world. We have a choice --we can chose what we feel meets our beliefs and ethics. We can show kids what the options are…like a buffet, take what you like leave the rest.

Personally…I get the feeling there is a resentful stubborn set that want to drag heels, resist change, try to prove the dump it at the auction thing is fine because that’s how they’ve done it for years. But you know, times have changed. Personally, I also see from business side of things…people now days are willing to pay more for a happy ending. People are paying big for organic this that and other thing, happy hens, happy cows…happy horses. This is where the money is even if the empathy/ethics regarding the animals doesn’t flap you.

I’ve mingled in another horsey industry known for its…downsides…shall we say. I went into it thinking I was really going to hold my nose put ear plugs in my ears to --but, I was pleasantly surprised by how much care went into the horses and how much effort trainers and owners took to find a real home for horses being cut loose. Still plenty don’t, but plenty do. Also the controlling entity has a program for fans to register their name on any horses papers so if the horse is down on it’s luck/in trouble whoever has the papers can choose to call. No obligation for either party–just the name is their as person interested in helping the horse if it ever needs it.

I think it’s good for horse people to make these steps—it’ll never be a utopia but, it sets a example, it sets a ethical tone, makes the biz cleaner feeling.

[findeight]

My barns always told the parents and let them tell their young children. But after the fact so the kid doesnt think they can somehow save their beloved schoolie or go sit in its stall refusing to move thinking it will save the ill it crippled horse from being PTS. It was always done on a closed day, no children watched the walk. They typically had a little remembrance party for the more popular mounts that passed. If you want to take teaching somebody else’s young child about death over without their knowledge, good luck with that.

Euth and body disposal is not cheap, lower end barns that operate on a very slim margin so more can afford their services, can’t afford euth or to keep a non earning horse so will sell at auction. So do more then a few Therapeutic riding centers running on donations BTW. And some schools.

Its tough. Are you willing to pay higher lesson fees to ensure they are allowed to retire or be PTS with body disposal? Many talk that talk but don’t walk the walk heading instead for the lowest prices. It is a harsh reality of the business.

Now, I pay more and always have to avoid patronizing places that use auction. BUT I cannot afford another horse and am not hitching up to go get one so not in a position to condemn practices I don’t agree with that aren’t in and of themselves abusive. Not my choice but not my call and not every auction horse goes to the killers, least some have a shot. After all, that’s where these places buy their horses.

For OP, have you taken in any of these horses or financially supported efforts to buy and rehome them or offered to cover euth and carcass disposal?

These are things nobody wants to talk about but that should be discussed and considered before picking a lesson facility.

[Venture_Cat]

@findeight

My barns always told the parents and let them tell their young children. But after the fact so the kid doesnt think they can somehow save their beloved schoolie or go sit in its stall refusing to move thinking it will save the ill it crippled horse from being PTS. It was always done on a closed day, no children watched the walk. They typically had a little remembrance party for the more popular mounts that passed. If you want to take teaching somebody else’s young child about death over without their knowledge, good luck with that.

Euth and body disposal is not cheap, lower end barns that operate on a very slim margin so more can afford their services, can’t afford euth or to keep a non earning horse so will sell at auction. So do more then a few Therapeutic riding centers running on donations BTW. And some schools.

Its tough. Are you willing to pay higher lesson fees to ensure they are allowed to retire or be PTS with body disposal? Many talk that talk but don’t walk the walk heading instead for the lowest prices. It is a harsh reality of the business.

Now, I pay more and always have to avoid patronizing places that use auction. BUT I cannot afford another horse and am not hitching up to go get one so not in a position to condemn practices I don’t agree with that aren’t in and of themselves abusive. Not my choice but not my call and not every auction horse goes to the killers, least some have a shot. After all, that’s where these places buy their horses.

For OP, have you taken in any of these horses or financially supported efforts to buy and rehome them or offered to cover euth and carcass disposal?

These are things nobody wants to talk about but that should be discussed and considered before picking a lesson facility.

Yes. I have rescue horses as my mounts and have made myself available to help horses in need that cross my path. Also got my name # on several racehorses papers as a person to call if they are ever in need etc.I take my commitment to the horses very seriously.

Why the accusatory tones here? I’m confused? In the case that prompted me to start the thread people would have stepped up had they known and not been told horses were going to “friends” few in the knw suspected that was untrue and we located said horses at a auction–and reached out to people to assist in soft landings/intervention if needed. In this case, horses were just cut loose probably for fast cash…had we known we could have made them more money on them and saved them the fuel…–My motivation for discussing is genuine curiosity what people think is the norm for them.

[Katona]

This is an odd thread.

Why is there some forgone conclusion that any lesson kids should be privy to a business owner’s buying and selling? I could see if it was that kid’s horse the BO sold on, but it’s not. Oh, you loved the horse more than anyone else in the world? Because you spent a total of 4 hours a month with it? Please.

I don’t agree with the practice of meat-dumping horses (if that’s even the kind of auction the BO is selling to), but I am not telling someone else what they can or can’t afford. Morality/Ethics practices differ and some things are more important to people than others. If you have an issue with it, leave to find a BO that doesn’t.

As far as saying, “the horse is sold on,” that’s not a lie. The horse was sold. If she/he does it a lot, the auction people probably are friends. It’s the difference between telling a kid you broke up with someone they knew as your partner, verses saying, “I caught Lancelot cheating on me with your mom, so I broke up with him.” No one has a right to details you don’t wish to give, especially not children who don’t understand the full ramifications of a business/bills/adult life.

As an adult it is quite easy to take your business elsewhere if you don’t care for their practices. As an employee, there are things you can do to report unsafe practices that don’t involve talking trash while at your place of employment. If the employee won’t leave/report because of “murky” reasons, then the employee is also putting aside their morals/ethics in pursuit of their own next dollar.

I am feeling so old this morning.

[Venture_Cat]

@trubandloki

I am not saying I would lie. I am saying I have no issue with a barn owner running their riding program not as a life lesson teaching experience for every kid there.
Not telling them where Dobbin is does not equal lying necessarily.
A simple “Dobbin is not here anymore, but Stardust is just waiting for you to ride her” is a fine answer.

Again, fine if the barn wants to work that death happens into their horsemanship portion of their training for their lesson kids. I just do not think it is wrong if a barn does not want to do this.

I agree on touchy elements of discussing death with kids–their parents etc. In the case that prompted me to seek others experiences here— horses were sent to auction and a minor was told to lie to other kids and adult boarders saying they went to “friends”. I think that’s a bit unsavory. Don’t tell a kid/minor whose depending on you for free board in exchange for their labor to knowingly lie for you—at the very least, leave them out of it. Also the person overheard saying a horse that required a few vet visits to sort something “He can go to auction and be someone elses problem” had no filter or issue saying it in front of kids. ----It’s just not the sort of values/ethics I would choose to promote and my reasons for this post are to gain insight into what people think is the norm these days.

[trubandloki]

@Venture Cat

It’s just not the sort of values/ethics I would choose to promote and my reasons for this post are to gain insight into what people think is the norm these days.

That is not how I would deal with things either.

But these people are choosing to.

And saying they have no other choice is not accurate and it does more to make them look bad than it does to make them look like some type of victim here.

[findeight]

Well, the norm is horse owners and business operators do what they can afford. I don’t make some of those choices or give my money to those that do, recommend others don’t, but I am not in their boots.

Reality is some parents of young kids who want to ride and adults who want to ride will seek that lowest price even if they don’t care for some of the reasons it is cheaper and turn a deaf ear and blind eye to them. Those clients can’t pay more and a certain segment of operators target that group knowing they can’t afford to ride elsewhere. That goes for sketchy boarding barns too, they operate that way because there’s a market that accepts it because they can’t afford better.

Maybe in your area you can easily place unwanted or used up schoolies. Around here everybody says that’s the way to go, they will always have a place for it, but almost nobody ever actually takes one, like 3 in 25 years. Leaving the barn to pay for euth and disposal or add to the increasing number of pensioners they are supporting. For barns with a lot of horses, that gets expensive and it’s a big oart if why so many no longer offer by the ride schoolies. Pricing that lower end of the market out of riding.

I think this is a very good duscussion topic with differing viewpoints but shouldn’t be aimed at a single lower end barn, instead of the industry in general where what to do with unuseable horses is a widespread problem. Not just in lower end barns or those also engaging in abusive practices either.

[541hunter]

My BO keeps the schoolies forever, for the most part, and does a pretty damn good amount of maintenance to keep them comfy in their old age. We have one who’s 100% retired and quite a few well into their 20s who still go around happily. Some need a bit of veterinary help to ease the creakiness but they love the job, and they get time off if they need it.

They’ve sold two schoolies in the 8 years I’ve been there. One was when they had too many lesson horses on the payroll for the size of their business at the time, so they sold him to another program they knew well. The other was a medium pony who they’d had for a few years and was a good soul, but had a little too much zip for their needs. Trainer and BO spent a lot of time trying to make it work but in the end they thought he’d be much happier with one kid and 24/7 turnout, which they couldn’t offer. So they listed him for cheap, got a million inquiries, and sold him within the week to some western pros for their daughter, just a couple hours up the freeway. They send us photos now and again of the pony fat and happy in a massive field, in pink and purple western tack with his kid, etc.

The lesson kids all know what happened to those two and were warned in advance as much as possible. When they put one down a couple years ago (colic, horse had already had surgery when he was younger and vet said it was a no-go), I put out a tribute post on Facebook with some cursory details and asked for photos and stories. That got the word around pretty fast, and the parents of younger kids got a heads up before they came out for a lesson. Plus it gave us a treasure trove of really touching messages to give to the BO and the horse’s old owner.

I don’t really have much respect for barns that dump their lesson horses at low-end auctions. It’s a business, so sometimes your needs and the horse’s ability/talents don’t match up—that’s fine. Selling them or rehoming doesn’t bother me if you do it the right way. My BO does more than is probably smart, profit-wise, and more than what I’d say is ethically required. But his morals are pretty strict when it comes to doing right by the horses who’ve served him, and the lesson program isn’t his only income stream.

From what OP describes, I wouldn’t do business with that barn personally. Sending a horse to a low-end auction isn’t ethically wrong, per se, but it’s against my morals, as is dumping a horse with an injury. Carefully selecting a retirement home for a horse with a career-ending injury is ok by me, though I personally would elect to retire it myself or possibly euth depending on severity and external factors.

[soloudinhere]

The OP isn’t even doing business with this barn (has no interest in what happens there, besides her “friend”)

The only motivation is apparently some headpats for superior ethics and morals, because “it makes the biz cleaner feeling”

[Venture_Cat]

@soloudinhere

The OP isn’t even doing business with this barn (has no interest in what happens there, besides her “friend”)

The only motivation is apparently some headpats for superior ethics and morals, because “it makes the biz cleaner feeling”

It seems like you have a personal grudge here. Do you want to talk about it? I’m pretty sure I don’t know you or have any previous contact with you. This topic clearly rankles with you. Care to elaborate?

[Venture_Cat]

@541hunter

My BO keeps the schoolies forever, for the most part, and does a pretty damn good amount of maintenance to keep them comfy in their old age. We have one who’s 100% retired and quite a few well into their 20s who still go around happily. Some need a bit of veterinary help to ease the creakiness but they love the job, and they get time off if they need it.

They’ve sold two schoolies in the 8 years I’ve been there. One was when they had too many lesson horses on the payroll for the size of their business at the time, so they sold him to another program they knew well. The other was a medium pony who they’d had for a few years and was a good soul, but had a little too much zip for their needs. Trainer and BO spent a lot of time trying to make it work but in the end they thought he’d be much happier with one kid and 24/7 turnout, which they couldn’t offer. So they listed him for cheap, got a million inquiries, and sold him within the week to some western pros for their daughter, just a couple hours up the freeway. They send us photos now and again of the pony fat and happy in a massive field, in pink and purple western tack with his kid, etc.

The lesson kids all know what happened to those two and were warned in advance as much as possible. When they put one down a couple years ago (colic, horse had already had surgery when he was younger and vet said it was a no-go), I put out a tribute post on Facebook with some cursory details and asked for photos and stories. That got the word around pretty fast, and the parents of younger kids got a heads up before they came out for a lesson. Plus it gave us a treasure trove of really touching messages to give to the BO and the horse’s old owner.

I don’t really have much respect for barns that dump their lesson horses at low-end auctions. It’s a business, so sometimes your needs and the horse’s ability/talents don’t match up—that’s fine. Selling them or rehoming doesn’t bother me if you do it the right way. My BO does more than is probably smart, profit-wise, and more than what I’d say is ethically required. But his morals are pretty strict when it comes to doing right by the horses who’ve served him, and the lesson program isn’t his only income stream.

From what OP describes, I wouldn’t do business with that barn personally. Sending a horse to a low-end auction isn’t ethically wrong, per se, but it’s against my morals, as is dumping a horse with an injury. Carefully selecting a retirement home for a horse with a career-ending injury is ok by me, though I personally would elect to retire it myself or possibly euth depending on severity and external factors.

Nice to hear this. I agree with you that it’s best to do business with places that are right match for your needs+ethics. In the end it’s put up or shut up if you have no other place to go. I do unfortunately know people who find themselves choosing lesser of 2 evils— what can we do…just keep looking for the right “tribe” to get in with eventually.

[Venture_Cat]

@findeight

Well, the norm is horse owners and business operators do what they can afford. I don’t make some of those choices or give my money to those that do, recommend others don’t, but I am not in their boots.

Reality is some parents of young kids who want to ride and adults who want to ride will seek that lowest price even if they don’t care for some of the reasons it is cheaper and turn a deaf ear and blind eye to them. Those clients can’t pay more and a certain segment of operators target that group knowing they can’t afford to ride elsewhere. That goes for sketchy boarding barns too, they operate that way because there’s a market that accepts it because they can’t afford better.

Maybe in your area you can easily place unwanted or used up schoolies. Around here everybody says that’s the way to go, they will always have a place for it, but almost nobody ever actually takes one, like 3 in 25 years. Leaving the barn to pay for euth and disposal or add to the increasing number of pensioners they are supporting. For barns with a lot of horses, that gets expensive and it’s a big oart if why so many no longer offer by the ride schoolies. Pricing that lower end of the market out of riding.

I think this is a very good duscussion topic with differing viewpoints but shouldn’t be aimed at a single lower end barn, instead of the industry in general where what to do with unuseable horses is a widespread problem. Not just in lower end barns or those also engaging in abusive practices either.

I’m not sure where lower end barns got targeted in the thread? I agree–it’s an industry wide issue…what happens to unwanted horses that need to leave ASAP. As I’ve mentioned through out the thread—some resources Ive seen/promoted/used are internet media, rescues, local horse scene, people willing to chip in together to avert bad situation, making sure horses that leave have something on papers w/ contact info stating can be called if horse is in need (some breed registry’s offer this or you just write on there by hand…) It’s a drop in the bucket, but I like to do what I can when I can. Internet is gaining ground with people using the crowd source method to help. Yes, again, can’t save them all but we can try, we can make an effort, we can tell others so they consider maybe some other options.

[Venture_Cat]

BTW Mods-- this might be better moved to “Around The Farm” I didn’t realize I put it in hunt/jump. My bad.

[trubandloki]

@Venture Cat

BTW Mods-- this might be better moved to “Around The Farm” I didn’t realize I put it in hunt/jump. My bad.

The mods do not randomly read threads. If you want your thread moved send them a PM or an alert (the flag in the lower right) or tag them in the thread.