One of the biggest things is what if you get hurt with no one around… If i’m by myself I ride with my phone in my pocket but thats pretty useless if your unconscious or otherwise cant use it. I think these kids sound fine its not like they have done anything “bad” and until then I would’t worry about it IMO.
There is very little to do with horses that does not involve a heightened level of risk - ask your insurer. Some form of arm’s-length supervison is appropriate at all times. No ‘helicoptering’ necessary.
“Responsible” has a legal definition as well. Last I looked - granted, a while ago - a teen in a barn situation had to be 16 or older in order to be legally ‘responsible’ for watching younger minors. When push comes to shove the actual functional responsibility level of the individual does not figure into it: it is all about age.
Feral children in a barn make me edgey: as a fairly experienced adult (and professional horseman) I can imagine being held responsible, after the fact, for not stepping in to prevent an incident/accident that an experienced adult might reasonably be expected to foresee just because I was an adult in the vicinity and aware of what the kids were doing. I resent being put in that position by those who should be responsible for the kids. I do not think my insurance company would appreciate it, either.
[QUOTE=Beck;8659771]
I resent being put in that position by those who should be responsible for the kids. [/QUOTE]
This is a big part of it for those barns that allow these “drop off” kids. Yes, there is a legal issue, but when I rode, or when I was watching my own kids ride - I really resented the implication that I would step in to help or prevent an accident. I have horses at home, too. I have enough “work” to do and do not need to practice saddling/bridling or helping 7-8 year olds saddle and bridle because they are too small and no one else was available. Or prevent an accident.
Then there was the time that a little girl wanted to “give apples” to the horses that had been “turned out” in the indoor arena during a heavy rain – a group of 3 or 4 rowdy geldings. I found this tiny 50lb girl standing in the middle of a galloping group of horses after her mom dropped her off for summer camp - arms outstretched with an apple in each. She was pissed that I grabbed her and dragged her out, too. I plopped her in the BO’s office and made arrangements to find a new lesson barn. :no:
[QUOTE=S1969;8659858]
I really resented the implication that I would step in to help or prevent an accident.[/QUOTE]
I agree, that was my problem too.
All done with riding and my chores and ready to leave but I felt like I had to stay because there is some pre-teen there with no one else there. If I left they would be alone and they are just getting ready to ride or whatever.
So there I waited for some other adult to show up so I could leave so this kid was not alone.
As a BO who takes very few boarders, I do understand the concern about unsupervised kids at the barn. At the same time many years ago in a galaxy far, far away, I was an unsupervised kid.
My neighbors built a shed row stable that housed their kids and our ponies. It was a reasonably far distance from the houses and our parents were not frequent visitors to the barn. We were largely left to our own devices. Somehow we managed not to destroy ourselves, ponies or property. As a kid, I used to hack by myself miles over hill and dale to take riding lessons or to show. I did all sorts of stuff with no supervision. I was age 10 when I started with horses.
It was a different time and place. Parents were less likely to helicopter in at the drop of a hat, people weren’t particularly litigious, and kids were expected to learn by experience. So as a BO, I can see it both ways.
I can see it from both sides, but the insurance company will not, and if the BO is insured it’s their rates that will skyrocket if someone gets hurt and ends up filing a medical claim. Insurance companies are far more aggressive in trying to recoup money that they have paid out to hospitals in medlcal claims then they were when most of the posters here were free ranging on other peoples’ properties. Insurance lawyers make their livings pursuing these reimbursements, and all it takes is a short trip to the ER to get the ball rolling. I had to fend them off from collecting on an injury that was treated in the ER resulting from me falling off my own horse when no one else was at fault. Between the paperwork coming in and the phone calls to my home, they made no secret that they were looking for someone to sue, and the BO along with anyone who was in the area at the time of the accidnt were in their cross hairs. It took a couple of years of repeating my story time and agin to finally put it all to rest and get them off of the lawsuit bandwagon. No one should have to be expected to put themselves in the way of that.
So, no, I won’t provide gratis child-sitting services for an unattended child free ranging at the barn, and yes, I will tell both the BO and parents that in order to keep myself safely in the clear. If they make the agreement to let the kid free range, they accept the responsibility of what happens when things go wrong. jmo.
I can see both sides of this.
As (an old) former barn rat, I am sad that there is such a reluctance to let kids come to the barn without parental supervision. My parents almost never set foot in the barn when I was growing up; they didn’t much like horses and honestly I think that although they somewhat grudgingly put up with my obsession, they tried not to encourage it, hoping I would take up something they preferred, like tennis. (I have never quite forgiven them for this, BTW.)
That said, back in those days we got taught a lot of horsemanship and care in addition to riding lessons. We were TAUGHT to be pretty safe and competent around horses in addition to learning how to ride, so there wasn’t much risk of us kneeling next to a horse to pick its feet, or such, per the example above. We mostly did things to earn our instructor’s favor when we were at the barn alone - we groomed the horses or cleaned the tackroom or polished the tack trunks. So we were, in general, pretty useful and not too scary.
Sadly, I think that kind of horsemanship training is pretty rare in today’s world and the attitude toward liability and litigation is certainly different than when I was a kid. Back then, if you got hurt around the horses, you got sent home or to the doctor or whatever and no one even thought about lawyers and lawsuits. (We could also fall off our bikes, out of trees, etc without anyone thinking “someone had to pay,” as well.)
[QUOTE=Chief2;8660175]
… they made no secret that they were looking for someone to sue, and the BO along with anyone who was in the area at the time of the accident were in their cross hairs. …No one should have to be expected to put themselves in the way of that.[/QUOTE]
“…along with anyone who was in the area at the time…” - and THAT is what some replying seem to be missing: if you are in the area, the ‘shotgun approach’ to suing may very well include you. Does not matter if you are not there in any official capacity; private individual, innocent bystander, know-nothing whatever: presumablyyou could have either caused or prevented whatever it was, simply by being there. One very good argument for somebody being designated responsible for minors: it puts the rest of us at one layer removed from responsibility.
[QUOTE=Beck;8660402]
“…along with anyone who was in the area at the time…” - and THAT is what some replying seem to be missing: if you are in the area, the ‘shotgun approach’ to suing may very well include you. Does not matter if you are not there in any official capacity; private individual, innocent bystander, know-nothing whatever: presumablyyou could have either caused or prevented whatever it was, simply by being there. One very good argument for somebody being designated responsible for minors: it puts the rest of us at one layer removed from responsibility.[/QUOTE]
A friend is being sued for 60k for this reason. It totally blindsided him- people honestly just do not understand how aggressive insurance companies can be about recouping costs.
Believe me as someone who carries insurance licenses and has had experience handling liability claims in my past, I do understand the insurance argument. And I have plenty of commercial and personal liability insurance in place and take lots of risk management actions to mitigate potential losses.
It does make me sad that a child can’t have the same life experience I had growing up with horses. I don’t allow for unsupervised kids because I work full time off the premises. but retirement is coming so perhaps in the future there might be a possibility for kids to board with me. I also have to say, I have had some adult boarders who made the kids look pretty savvy.
When I was barn shopping this last time, I flat out asked about feral children.
I know it sounds course, but I don’t want to babysit and I can’t help myself if there are kids around who need guidance.
Barn rat type kids are great, but they still need supervision and it shouldn’t have to be provided by the boarders–it should be planned time with the parents and BO or trainer.
I will never again EVER board somewhere that allows feral kids. Sorry. I want my time at the barn to be about my horse and me. Not trying to teach or look out for kids that I didn’t sign up for.
I just last week had to address this with the young (15) year old girl who 1/4 leases my horse, as she was violating the policy. It is written into her lease contract, as well as in the farm rules, that minors cannot be mounted on any horse on farm property without another individual present. The rule is primarily so there is at least another person there who can pick up the phone and make an emergency call if necessary.
The farm rule stipulates 16 years old and under must be supervised, whereas my contract simply states “minor”. I did it this way so I could see if the leassor earned my trust while riding totally alone, and unfortunately up until this point she has not. When she turns 16, regardless of what the farm policy is, her contract with me will still bind her to “supervised” rides.
Safety is obviously the biggest concern, but young children and teenagers don’t have the best judgement. So leaving them to their own devices can result in some not so great situations that can amount to some expensive legal issues. Responsible 13 year old or not, horses are animals and always have the ability to be unpredictable. I think OP is right to be concerned.
There is another factor to consider also. All it takes is an allegation of mistreatment or a statement to the police to ruin your life. When it comes down to a case of one person’s word against another, then how do you prove who is telling the truth?
What if the adult at the barn thinks someone else will supervise, and they leave? Other boarders or trainers shouldn’t be expected to baby sit other people’s children. Especially in larger barns, almost anyone could be a boarder, and it’s not as if background checks are performed on every person who wants to board a horse, or take lessons.
…and th
having read this thread kind of makes me sad as I know how much the horses influenced and contributed to the success of our kids
My old barn had a no riding unless an adult present policy which was good. Owner/Trainer was good at teaching young riders/Jrs. the basics and often had high schoolers helping her out at the barn but they weren’t allowed to substitute for adults. The thing about that sort of policy in general is that it puts a supervisory burden on other adults who happen to be at the barn. However, most of the time the kids that were dropped off were not beginner riders.
shoot I don’t even like to be at a barn by myself these days - so much can happen even when you’re not on top of the horse.
But I do have to reflect back to my early days of riding when my mom would drop us off at the stable, lunches packed, for the entire day… Sure there were adults, US Marines to be exact, at the barn but when I think of the trails we kids went out on - bareback in tennis shoes, no helmets… for hours, no cell phones etc. Oh my
I can’t see how a 14 yo kid can possibly tend to an 8yo sibling AND get actual chores done, much less ride her horse. The funny thing is that many parents seem hesitant to “force” their 14yo kids to watch their young sibs at home, but seem ok with dropping them off at a barn or mall etc for hours.
I was a barn rat and learned a lot, but we were only allowed there when lessons or training was going on and instructors were around. As a fellow rider, I don’t want to be held responsible if someone else’s child is hurt while I’m there. Of course I’d help any way I could, but I dread the idea of having to defend against a lawsuit because a child was hurt in the area while I was 75 yards away in my horse’s stall. I also don’t want to be responsible for preventing accidents. The problem is that if I say “Here’s a safer way to tie Dobbin…” and the child gets hurt, I’ve now assumed a degree of responsibility by choosing to “teach” her. It’s a Catch-22, those who are willing to offer to teach a youngster are volunteering to act in loco parentis and thus bringing potential liability on themselves.
Also, lets face it, barn help is often transient and in most cases, deep background checks are not done. The mom who does a 3 day online check into the classmate who asks little Piper to the prom sees no problem dropping her off at the barn where unbeknownst to her, one worker is wearing an ankle bracelet and another has a long record of drug offenses
[QUOTE=Beck;8660402]
“…along with anyone who was in the area at the time…” - and THAT is what some replying seem to be missing: if you are in the area, the ‘shotgun approach’ to suing may very well include you. Does not matter if you are not there in any official capacity; private individual, innocent bystander, know-nothing whatever: presumablyyou could have either caused or prevented whatever it was, simply by being there. One very good argument for somebody being designated responsible for minors: it puts the rest of us at one layer removed from responsibility.[/QUOTE]
I left a barn for this reason. There was a teenager with a leased horse who was frequently there alone, riding, and was a huge accident waiting to happen–she had decided she was going to do barrel racing with this leased summer camp hunter and spent all her time galloping him wildly around. We had one of the biggest arenas in the area and he almost crashed into me and my horse twice in one ride when we were the only two people in the arena. I’m a teacher, and I know I’d get sued if anything happened while I was present and the only responsible adult. The barn owner didn’t do anything about it, so I left.
My current barn has a lot of Pony Club kids and young working students and boarders; the older responsible teens (16-17) are okay doing barn chores without a parent, but must have a parent there when riding and handling horses.
Were they there for a lesson or do they board a horse there? As a 13 year old I rode by myself unsupervised every day, so I have no issue with that.
The 8 year old I would need a parent there. Even if they are very focused and mature they are still very young.
[QUOTE=Linny;8662658]
…
Also, lets face it, barn help is often transient and in most cases, deep background checks are not done. The mom who does a 3 day online check into the classmate who asks little Piper to the prom sees no problem dropping her off at the barn where unbeknownst to her, one worker is wearing an ankle bracelet and another has a long record of drug offenses[/QUOTE]
Kind of surprised more haven’t mentioned this. I volunteer in my community, often with children, I had to pass two background checks and classroom training in what is considered appropriate and inappropriate behavior around children. Like we don’t ever touch them. Ever, except in an emergency. Largely because of what could be said and misunderstood even in an innocent situation.
BO might be leaving themselves wide open for this kind of trouble if they don’t give it some thought. All it takes is one kid making an accusation and it makes an injury claim seem trivial. Ever since I took that volunteer course, I feel even more uncomfortable with unaccompanied kids around some, if not many, barns.
And, back in the day when I hung around as an older teen/young adult, I remember creepy barn denizens, drunks and questionable, transient barn help of undetermined origins that rarely stayed more then a few months to a year at most. And I also remember rumors and whispers about things that were not discussed openly back then about some older male trainers and young girls.
In some barns it’s not a problem because they do background checks but with so many going under the table for barn help? And no trainer, BM or adult there, just a few random staffers and young, unsupervised kids??? Even with background checks, what if a kid makes an accusation? Automatic police involvement is what happens.
Not a very good idea. More BOs, BMs and trainers need to give this some thought in any barn, particularly if they admit they don’t know anything about who they hire and/or they allow unsupervised kids.
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