Barn/Stall Drainage

[Hope_And_A_Prayer]

Hoping the hive-mind can help, as I’m seriously at the end of my rope and budget.

For a bit of backstory: we’ve always dealt with drainage issues. Heavy clay soil. We’ve had multiple contractors over the years who for whatever reason do. not. get. the severity of the drainage problem and water runoff we deal with. I have been told “We can slope that area to direct the runoff, it’s no big deal.” (Newsflash: no, they couldn’t and now the new driveway is more mud than gravel) and “We’ll put in drain tile to direct the water . . . french drains? Nah, you don’t need that fancy stuff. The farmers use 4” tile plowed straight into the ground" (Another newsflash: 4" wasn’t enough, the rock it was bedded in ended up packed with mud after 2 rains, and now the water just runs right over it)

I’m to the point that the next one is going to be told “You think you know how bad the water can be here? TRIPLE IT and get back to me with your plan. And that plan CANNOT involve rocks the size of my foot.” Seriously – two contractors argued with me about my requests for a sacrifice area substrate and that the loads of 6" to 8" (sized pieces) of gravel they had delivered was what needed to be there.

In the fall we built a brand new barn in the best place we had to work with. Higher than most of the property but still at the bottom of two slopes. Contractor #3 laid french drains at the bottom of each slope (wanted to use larger tile but was forced down to 4" to tie into the previous guy’s work) bedding in deep trenches and surrounded by 4" rock. First major rain and the runoff still flooded the barn. #3 came back and laid a second set of french drains in front of the first set, this time with larger pipe and once again bedded in 4" rock. First major rain the runoff AGAIN clogged the gravel over the drains with mud and jumped both sets of drains and flooded the barn. AND the pad is so unstable that I sank the tractor up to the front axle today while trying to maneuver around it.

Inside the barn is still dirt, and I can feel it pumping under my feet when I walk in there, plus it has a spot right in the middle that’s lower than the rest and is holding water when it floods. All of it is lower than the surrounding area, as #3’s plan was to dig down to get it level with the bottom of the walls, run a plate compactor over it, lay down geotex, and build it up to grade with about 4" of 3/4" gravel. I had him stop after he compacted it and I saw that it was still unstable.

I’m pushing $10k at this point in gravel/grading/drains alone, nearly $40k on the full build, which is double my original budget. And I’m frustrated that nothing is working. I’m also concerned that 1) water is going to run under that geotex and gravel and sit on top of that clay (and keep the whole thing slimy and unstable) and 2) when I go to put stalls in I’m going to have a heck of a time with mats.

Has anyone been in this situation and can give me any help/advice? Hindsight is 20/20 and the $10k quote for concrete in the barn is cheap in comparison. I’m just completely devastated that I have a brand-new unusable building.

[Bogey2]

French Drain done correctly should work. See if you can find a legitimate contractor (someone who builds houses?)

[trubandloki]

Hire yourself a civil engineer who knows how to do drainage for various soil types.

I have clay (with lots of rock), and at certain times of year it does not matter how good our drainage is, there is lots of water, the ground is saturated (or still frozen) and the new water goes wherever the water wants to go.

[Hope_And_A_Prayer]

@Bogey2

French Drain done correctly should work. See if you can find a legitimate contractor (someone who builds houses?)

Contractor #3 is who was recommended to us by two home builders. None of the local home builders do site prep, they subcontract it out.

@trubandloki

Hire yourself a civil engineer who knows how to do drainage for various soil types.

I have clay (with lots of rock), and at certain times of year it does not matter how good our drainage is, there is lots of water, the ground is saturated (or still frozen) and the new water goes wherever the water wants to go.

I wouldn’t have thought of a civil engineer, that’s a good direction to follow. Thank you.

Our clay is just that – clay with nothing else. And yes, the ground is currently saturated (a lot of this area stays that way even in drier weather) and the water runs across the top instead of seeping in. In the process of the running it grabs soil (and now mud in our case) and deposits it on top of the drainage rock, creating a mud bridge. And, of course, that’s the time of year I need to be able to use this structure the most. Not just during the dry season

[endlessclimb]

I hate to say it, but it sounds like your property is always going to have issues. Building a structure at the bottom of two slopes - there’s only so much that can be done.

Basically you need to DIVERT the water coming down those two slopes before it gets to the structure. And then - you need to give it somewhere else to go. This is $$$. Swales, ditches, etc. How about hooking some surface drains to that tile that’s swamped in mud?

I’m not trying to rub your nose in it here, but the #1 advice I was given when I was looking for a place is “pay attention to where the water goes”. You can move it around a little bit, but if you’re the lowest land - guess what. The water is yours.

For all the mud that’s coming with the runoff - can you plant vegetation, or pin down silt screens to stop that dirt from moving? Is it still bare from the construction?

For right now, I’d put sandbags around the areas where the water is jumping the drains - ugly but temporary solution.

[Hope_And_A_Prayer]

@endlessclimb

I hate to say it, but it sounds like your property is always going to have issues. Building a structure at the bottom of two slopes - there’s only so much that can be done.

@endlessclimb

I’m not trying to rub your nose in it here, but the #1 advice I was given when I was looking for a place is “pay attention to where the water goes”. You can move it around a little bit, but if you’re the lowest land - guess what. The water is yours.

Agreed. This is not the property I would have chosen to have horses on but that’s a long story that I won’t get into . . . because you were told exactly right. I told hubby the first day we walked onto this property that I would guarantee it was a drainage nightmare because it’s a 3 sided bowl. With the 4th side being farmland that (we found out 3 months in) regularly floods from the river.

@endlessclimb

Basically you need to DIVERT the water coming down those two slopes before it gets to the structure. And then - you need to give it somewhere else to go. This is $$$. Swales, ditches, etc. How about hooking some surface drains to that tile that’s swamped in mud?

Currently it’s all hooked in and directed to a drainage ditch on the other side of our property. Last night I was looking at maybe doing channel drains around it; at least I could clean the mud out. I just don’t want to continue to spend more money on ideas that won’t work. Hence my post, hoping others had dealt with something similar and had success in a way I hadn’t thought of.

@endlessclimb

For all the mud that’s coming with the runoff - can you plant vegetation, or pin down silt screens to stop that dirt from moving? Is it still bare from the construction?

For right now, I’d put sandbags around the areas where the water is jumping the drains - ugly but temporary solution.

Yes, it’s nothing but slop all around the building site. It was finished too late to get grass seeded, several things had to be redone, which tore up the site more. A friend suggested a product called Quick Dam but I haven’t tried it yet. I considered getting bales of straw and lining up a couple of rows across the worst area for runoff, pounding in a rebar stake through each one, and trying to at least slow the crazy rush.

[endlessclimb]

I’d do anything to slow that water down so it doesn’t build so much speed to drag the dirt with it. Landscape fabric pinned down, straw bales, sand bags, anything.

Maybe this will all be more manageable once you get vegetation down, but until then - it’s going to be a tough road.

[Bonnie2]

Water needs to go somewhere. You need to go out in the rain and see exactly where it is coming from and its current preferred route and where it ends up. Take pictures for your contractor. Then you need to decide what compromises you are willing to live with. As endlessclimb said, you need to divert and slow the water. French drains work to leach water from a wet area. Like a ring. They will not drain enough water quickly enough to control a torrent.

I have spent 40 years keeping horses on hilly properties with clay soil and my experience has been very few contractors have a clue
about water on a farm. And very few will pay any attention to what a woman says. On one side of my place we dug a ditch and used the soil to bank the downhill side. Once we got it covered with grass it has worked great. Downside is we electric fenced off the whole corner so the horses don’t destroy it. The sacrifice paddock has a swathe of that big drainage rock, again fenced off to keep the horses out. It takes some footage from the paddock but keeps the rest useable. Also the best thing we ever did was pave the driveway. We couldn’t afford it at first but it gets tiresome dragging the gravel back every storm.

Sounds to me like you need a ditch around your barn and somewhere for the water to drain to. Retention basin a possibility? Staked in straw bales are a good short term way to slow the water. Widening the drainage channel and large rock are longer term tools. But you still need to find a place for the water to end up. There’s no great answers, only compromises. Good luck!

[Hope_And_A_Prayer]

I’m sincerely glad that I’m not crazy for going out in the rain over all these years lol! I guess that’s my biggest frustration with prior contractors – the little woman had no clue what she was talking about even when I described in detail what it looked like in each area during a light rain vs. a heavy rain.

This latest contractor is trying his best and has actually watched the video and studied the pictures I’ve sent him over the past few months.

The main drive is concrete, but we added a drive to the barn and had planned on having it circle back to the main. We’ve halted everything until we can get the drainage worked out.

[mmeqcenter]

@Bonnie2

Sounds to me like you need a ditch around your barn and somewhere for the water to drain to. Retention basin a possibility?

@endlessclimb

Basically you need to DIVERT the water coming down those two slopes before it gets to the structure. And then - you need to give it somewhere else to go. This is $$$. Swales, ditches, etc.

These are exactly my thoughts.

Some kind of retaining wall or berm to divert the water. And dig a retention pond or ponds or swales.