Barn with no electricity help!

[Guilherme]

Instead of “jousting” with local officials (almost always a LOSING proposition) she might ask for a “bill of particulars” on what she needs to do to make it work. Officials MUST give reasons if they refuse a permit. On this you can “joust.” Likely there were prior issues and she’s now stuck with what a prior owner didn’t do (and that’s another reason to do a lot of “due diligence” before you buy property).

If the cost of meeting local codes is too high then there are two alternatives.

First, go “off the grid” and put in a solar/wind system. Maybe local codes will block this, too, but if they do then you can “shame” local officials by pointing out they are poisoning the planet by preventing an “alternative” energy solution. Yeah, that’s “over the top” but it is something to consider.

Second, do a simple wiring job and get a generator. Contractor grade generators in the 7.5KW range are not all that expensive and would likely do the job. It would take some planning and would be another maintenance item but it could work. Again, this might run afoul of local rules but maybe not.

Both of the above options are predicated on reading the “bill of particulars” that is preventing normal hook up.

Good luck to your friend in her project.

G.

[gumtree]

I am curious for educational reasons why the town won’t allow electric. But that’s moot at this point, the owner, the barn is now on their radar. Makes me wonder if they will take exception to even running an "extension: cord. Or any kind of “electric”

I do most “stuff” without asking. Nothing major that is highly visible from the street. I have found due to bureaucratic BS it is easy to ask for “forgiveness” then permission and have to jump through a bunch of BS to get something simple done. . We are turning into a nanny nation.

When I had an off grid cabin i looked into solar but it was and is still a bit too pricey depending on needs. I bought a couple of marine deep cycle 12 volt batteries. They are used on boats to supply power for short term living needs when the boat’s generator is not running. Unlike car batteries they are designed for this purpose, can take and hold a large charge and power drain.

I used low voltage lights, LED lights weren’t really available at the time. These bulbs use even less power and put out great lightning with very little power drain. I used a inexpensive “power inverter”. Which take 12 volt DC and inverts it to 120 AC. I set this up in the early 2000. All of this stuff is much better made and cheaper these days. I could run my TV with Satellite dish/receiver, stereo/music, computer, etc for several days before the batteries needed to be recharged. If I was just running low voltage lights the batts would last a lot longer.

I also had a small generator. But it was noisy, annoying to run a lot, the quiet ones are very pricey. I had a large auto battery charger (around $100±) that I plugged into the genny to charge the batteries. Took about 2 hours depending on how low they were. Very good generators can be had from Harbor Freight on sale for $250-500+. IMO anybody that lives in the country should have a back up generator. Esp those with horses. Just having a genny big enough to run a well pump is god sent when power is out.

My cabin was wire just like any house. The set up worked great and only cost a few $100. Worth checking out RV websites that carry all kinds of stuff for off road living. Off gird solar websites may have some great suggestions also. The cost of all this stuff has dropped considerably in recent years. But even a simple “solar” set up is not cheap. You will still need batteries because when the sun sets so does the power if running directly off of panels.

The hot water heater can be much more problematic. A standard inexpensive residential electric one really needs to be hard wired to the house’s breaker/electric panel. If the code inspector should stop in because they see lights on in the barn they could take exception to this.

IMO gas residential hot water heater would be the way to go. Run off a large propane bottle, at least a 100 pounder depending on needs. Though new ones are “fired” with an electric igniter. Pretty sure the igniter is low voltage an or have battery back up on them. Old style used a pilot light just like stoves.

The portable propane hot water heaters that have been suggested work, but seem to have mixed reviews. There have been threads on them. Easy enough to do a search for “reviews” on them and the best models.

I wonder if the county will take exception to any kind of “lighting”? Would need to know exactly what the rules and regs are to give suggestions on how to get around what they will allow and what they won’t.

[mmeqcenter]

Maybe one of these would generate enough water for her while she’s out there?
https://www.campchef.com/portable-water-heater-triton-5l.html

[StormyDay]

I am passing all this along to her, thanks everyone!

[clanter]

I bought a couple of marine deep cycle 12 volt batteries.

just a note a discharged battery can freeze as the acid/water solution in a flooded battery such as a marine battery will not be mixed properly, once frozen let thaw before attempting to recharge. A frozen battery being charged has a tendency to explode

AGM batteries (glass matt) will not freeze when in a discharged state

[PeteyPie]

I love threads like this. I learn so much!

[buck22]

I’ve been self care boarding without electricity for almost a decade. Running water, but no power. I use an insta-hot propane water heater for hot water in the winter months, for washing, etc. My horses only get fed (hard feed) once per day, they live out 24/7 with shelter and unlimited fresh clean nutritious hay.

My geriatric needs his warm drinking water and hot breakfast mash, so each winter I reposition and insulate the water tub and fill it with hot water from the insta-hot. It stays not only ice-free, but tepid for 24 hours, and we routinely dip into single digits overnight and some days here, with negative windchills.

When I first started this boarding arrangement, I wondered how I’d ever live without power. Save a handful of nighttime emergencies in a decade, its never been an issue at all and I don’t miss it.

Fortunately, the owners of the property are wonderful people and I have access to their powered barn if needed for vets and other pros that might need power.

When I boarded at a gorgeous backyard arrangement once, the owner ran an extension cord from the house to the barn for a water heater, but it was less than 200’. For any vet visits, etc., that required power, we brought the horses up to the house. She had a small extention built off of the side of her home, cement pad, rubber matted and under an awning for inclement weather, with tie posts and one solid wall. It was a good solution, offering plenty of room for farriers and vets in a weather-protected area. For the few times a year it was needed, it saved a lot of hassle and cost running proper power to her barn.

I guess I haven’t had power in almost 15 years. I’ve become very resourceful with battery and gas powered tools, and have gotten very good at insulating things.

As I only see my horses during daylight hours anyhow, I honestly have not missed not having power.

[enjoytheride]

I agree, find out what the permit issues are and work that way. In the meanwhile, I have these for use in my trailer and they light it up like daylight.

https://www.amazon.com/Version-TOMOL…t+switch&psc=1

I’m quoting myself because I tried to use these lights at a horse show when it dropped into the 20s overnight and they struggled to turn on. I put them in my truck and once they warmed up they came on bright as always but something to think about. I think they would be fine into the 40s or maybe upper 30s.

[gumtree]

@clanter

just a note a discharged battery can freeze as the acid/water solution in a flooded battery such as a marine battery will not be mixed properly, once frozen let thaw before attempting to recharge. A frozen battery being charged has a tendency to explode

AGM batteries (glass matt) will not freeze when in a discharged state

Good point, it has to do with the electrolyte dilution on a pretty much fully discharged battery. A fully charged battery will not freeze until about minus 70. A fully discharged bat can start freezing like water, 32. Pretty cool, interesting “science” behind this.

My off gird cabin was in the Mts of Co where it would get very chilly at times. I just made sure my bats were fully charged before I left for a month or two. Never had any issues. Even when I forgot to fully charge before leaving.

AGM bats were too pricey for my uses.

[maunder]

I put my barn up in 1994. I’ve wanted electric to it, but I’ve never had the funds to do so. Over the years I’ve used Amish propane lamps, camp lamps and wind up lamps. I prefer headlamps now. I don’t have water to the barn. I’m in a cold climate so I run a hose to the water tub when it’s above freezing, and carry water when it’s below freezing. My barn is about 200 feet from my house.

If I need to wash anyone I bring water down in buckets or tubs. I only do that if I have a wound. I will do hot toweling if I need to.

[roseymare]

Don’t necessarily want to derail but any recommendations for outdoor power cords. I need one for my tank de-icer. I bought one from Menards late last winter and I am going to try to return it because the insulation has cracked. It was only used from late Feb - late Mar and then put in the barn. I am quite dissapointed in its wear. So any suggestions would be appreciated and might be helpful for the OP’s friend as well.

[hosspuller]

@roseymare

Don’t necessarily want to derail but any recommendations for outdoor power cords. I need one for my tank de-icer. I bought one from Menards late last winter and I am going to try to return it because the insulation has cracked. It was only used from late Feb - late Mar and then put in the barn. I am quite dissapointed in its wear. So any suggestions would be appreciated and might be helpful for the OP’s friend as well.

Important info missing for a good answer … How long of a run from outlet to tank… And model of Deicer or wattage.

[roseymare]

It is a small deicer and only needs to be 50 feet.
But I don’t understand why that info is important as I just want a brand that will hold up to the weather. This one did not although it was supposed to. It was an $80.00 contractor cord.

[Ticker]

Unless something is different where you live, an outlet in your home should be rated to deliver 15 amps of electrical power. This means that the sum of current used by all electrical devices on that service line, where that electrical outlet in your home is located…including all other electrical outlets on the same line, must not exceed 15 amps.
Homes have multiple 15 amp service lines…some have 30 amp service lines or other configurations, you have to check the fuse box and read what each fuse says. I’m going to assume you are using a basic 15 amp service line for my example to keep it simple.

If you use an extension cord, it must be rated to handle the current load you need to draw, ie…15 amps. You can run multiple extension cords to the barn, but in order to exceed 15 amps, without tripping the fuse in your home, you would have to run the second cord from a different service line to achieve two 15 amp service lines to the barn.

15 amps will run a lot of low power light bulbs and a few fans, probably more than is needed. 15 amps is not likely to be enough to run any water heater unless it is very small. You could get the silver, shiny flexible conduit hose from the hardware store to run the extension cord thru to protect it until a permanent solution can be used.

But, for the hot water, you could do what I do… I run a heavy duty 100 foot hose out my basement window to the barn. When I’m done, I disconnect it. I have a hose caddy which makes draining the hose while rolling it up with the crank handle on the caddy very simple. Then I just roll the caddy to the garage.

[gumtree]

@roseymare

It is a small deicer and only needs to be 50 feet.
But I don’t understand why that info is important as I just want a brand that will hold up to the weather. This one did not although it was supposed to. It was an $80.00 contractor cord.

Hosspuller is correct in asking for a bit more information. The “size” of the deicer is not the physical size, he/she is asking what “power” size, heat out put size, For heating purposes, the amount of “heat” put out, deicers just like electric space heaters, baseboard heaters are rate in Watts. This also the amount of power being drawn when it is working.

The average consumer deicers come in a range of around 150 up to 1500 watts. Bucket deicers fall in the range of around 150 to 250. 15 gallon heated water tubs have builtin 250 watt heating element. Heated water buckets generally are 100-150. Stand alone water tank heaters are usually 500 to 1500 watts. Depends on how much water is being kept in the tank.

The size of the heater is dictated by ones winter climate. In my neck of SE Pa I need to run 1500 watt heater in 75+ gallon tanks. The more water the higher the wattage is needed. Cheaper to keep 25+ gallons deiced but depending on how many horses are drinking a tank this size may need to be filled at least once a day. So it comes down to how much effort it take to fill the tanks each day.

Auto waterers are much cheaper to operate in the winter because they only keep X gallons in the bowl at any given time. Plus good ones use thermal convection from the ground. With electric heat as a back up. Some don’t need a heater at all. But I wouldn’t trust that in my climate.

As far as using extension cords. I wouldn’t use anything smaller than a 12 gauge with heaters rated 750-1500 watts. Regardless of the “run”, length. Heaters are “pulling” a lot more power through the wires for long periods of time. Not like short use high demand power tool, appliances etc. A “contractor” is using saws, other power tools etc for short periods of time. They are not running continuously for 8 hrs, or 24/7 for days. The cords are not laying on the cold/freezing ground 24/7 either. The cord of a high demand heater can and will be warm to the touch when a heater has been operating for long periods of time. This is normal. If it is very warm this usually means the cord/wire is undersized. The plug will also be very warm because the “interface” between the prongs of the plug and the outlet cause “resistance”.The cord itself gets warm due to resistance, electricity does not flow smoothly through wires. The high power demand ruining through an undersized wire creates a lot of resistance. Heat = lost power, and wasted money.

That’s the long of it. In short contractor cords are not meant for this purpose. No extension cords are. The outer sheath can and will break down from being warm/hot all the time and being exposed to the elements. The plugs on either end can and will “melt” a bit sometimes.

IMO and experience and I have recommended this numerous times when the topic comes up. Is to buy X feet needed of 12-2 grey direct bury wire/conductor. It has solid copper core wire, heavy duty outer sheath that will stand the test of time. Buy heavy duty high amp rated male and female “pulls” and attach. You don’t need to be an electrician to do this. There are only 3 wires to connect to each end and they are color coded. The hardest part is stripping back the outer sheath to expose the wires. I am sure there are plenty of Utube vids that will walk one through the process.

It is best to know the quality of the outlet it is being plugged into. There are cheapo outlet that are installed for lights, lite short demand appliances etc. and heavy duty outlets which only cost a few dollars more. A properly wire barn should have heavy duty outlets installed and are much better for constant use high demand power needs.

[maunder]

Thanks for the great info on power and cords, outlets and such gumtree, ticker and hosspuller.

[roseymare]

It is a small wattage bucket deicer in a small plastic 1/2 barrel tank. One horse.
The cord was 15 amp and the heaviest gauge Menards sells. It was not hot to the touch whenever I checked it but it is possible it wasn’t on when I was testing as we did have a fairly mild winter. There was no other pull on the outlet. The barn is on its own circuit breaker replaced about 3 years ago. Outlet is heavy duty and ground tested good when I checked it before using it with the heater . I almost never use the lights in the barn. I don’t bother to turn them on to feed the old mare. This small bucket de icer was the only pull. The cord was laid flat and not driven over and probably not even walked on.
Thanks gumtree for the suggestion that I might need to make my own. I am capable of that. And was wondering if that would be the case as I do not see the heavy duty cords like we use with the hay elevator for sale anywhere anymore.

[roseymare]

Oh and I get why used asked as most barns people skimp and all. I am amazed at some if the things I see.
I was reluctant to plug it into the barn as I have another outlet and circuit breaker on a pole for outside use but it didn’t ground properly when I tested it. I meant to have it checked this year but time got ahead of me.
I won’t start using the heater until we have sustained low temps. I don’t mind breaking ice periodically, but mare is 35 now and I want her 24 hour access.

[trubandloki]

@enjoytheride

I agree, find out what the permit issues are and work that way. In the meanwhile, I have these for use in my trailer and they light it up like daylight.

https://www.amazon.com/Version-TOMOL…t+switch&psc=1

I’m quoting myself because I tried to use these lights at a horse show when it dropped into the 20s overnight and they struggled to turn on. I put them in my truck and once they warmed up they came on bright as always but something to think about. I think they would be fine into the 40s or maybe upper 30s.

Interesting that you had a problem with yours. I have some of these in various places (tack room in the barn and in the horse trailer) and have not had that issue yet.

[bdj]

I used a set of taplights for a couple of years before I got electric run out to my barn - they worked really well, although when the temperatures got really low, they burned through batteries fairly quickly.

As far as the hot water - I still don’t have hot water in my barn. I have a hot water kettle in the barn now, but before that (and still anytime I want more than the kettle can heat up in one go) I carry a bucket from the house, but I’m not trying to wash the pony in the winter. If I needed to do that, I think I’d look into one of the propane systems.

OP, you didn’t mention how big the barn was or how many horses your friend is dealing with - that might help folks give better suggestions. (My taplights were awesome for my one/two horse setup, but they probably wouldn’t have been sufficient in a larger barn, for example.)