At the Europeans in Aachen I sat next to a German lady who had a couple of Andalusians. There were two in the final
of the Grand Prix kur and they were pretty special. But she said they would not do exceptionally well because of a
prejudice that ran through the judging and she had found that that was a trait that went all through the system. Sad really.
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To the detriment of the breeds…if people want WB movement, then let them buy WB’s.
Iberians, specifically the Lusitano, was bred traditionally as a working cattle horse. I spoke to the head of the APSL and they are now marketing to the “dressage” market and are shifting the breed standards towards those.
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An Andy with longer pasterns will have a smoother trot to sit (as opposed to very short ones).
The Friesians I’ve ridden take a lot more energy just to post the trot. They are also harder to get into condition as they don’t have that extra energy to push on. Can be done, just know that conditioning work is essential and time consuming. They can be lovely dressage horses and tend to have excellent personalities.
In my area, there are more Andis showing dressage with ammis and doing well. I think the stigma has lessened. But there will always be idiot judges.
One bonus to all the Andis I’ve ridden: Never fell of a one of them. Never was bronced off one of them. Can’t say that about the WBs I’ve ridden.
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I was debating on either buying a very young warmblood or a PRE. Unfortunately, I would not buy sight unseen and in my area I found a warmblood that I loved. I did go to a breeder and looked at a couple of youngsters that were PRE, but the horses were not well represented and that can effect the sale. Another breeder in our area, did not do training on the youngsters ( no hoof care, or easy foal training) so I opted to pass on those as well. If I am going to spend a fair amount on a youngster, it’s nice if they lead, can be groomed, and at least hop on a trailer. I have ridden one PRE and I loved him, easy, light, responsive, and pretty. My coach who has trained numerous horses through FEI, he highly recommends them as well. I would still buy one though. The warmblood was better presented though, and I went with him.
Well, I have one of each, and I have to say they both are fantastic in their own way. I’ve had mostly TB’s, as I came from eventing, as well as some unusual crosses. My first WB was a mare I bought as a 2 year old. She was very talented, but after I got into a car accident her movement aggravated my back injury. She was very much a push ride. I acquired her brother who was by a different sire also as a two year old. I had planned on selling him, thinking it was WB movement that hurt my back.
I bought a Andy 3 year old. He doesn’t move much like a typical Andy. He has big gaits, and is a big horse at 16.3-17 H. Even though he has a long mane and a big brand, people still can’t guess what he is because of his movement and extremely long legs. He has been very difficult to start due to being a stallion who was in a stall and isolated. He feels like a dream to ride.
My Hanoverian gelding is now 3, and is just so easy. His gaits aren’t quite as big as my Andy’s, but he is super comfortable. I believe he has much bigger gaits in there which with develop with training. I have since realized that the forward and little bit of suspension is what makes them both comfortable. The push ride of my first WB made me tighten my seat/back, which is what hurt it.
So I now have the biggest first world conundrum. I was planning on only having one horse, and instead I have the two best horses of my life. I don’t want to part with either of them. They both are very different, but so dang fun to ride! The Hano has the sweetest personality, and I refer to him as my Labrador. The Andy is just starting to not be such a PIA on the ground, and is a real trickster. He is always messing with people! The both really like to work. They are 3 and 4, so both very young.
Anyway, I think the answer is it depends on the horse in front of you. The breeding can matter on work ethic, temperament, gaits, etc. My Hanoverian is much more docile, and the Andy is intimidating and tricky with the biggest gaits. Stereotypes don’t always hold true. These are both horses with FEI qualities. Both have excellent canters, with the Andy being slightly better. At the end of the day, as Manni stated, they are both capable dressage horses with the proper training.
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Warmbloods are bred for different careers - jumper lines, dressage lines, driving lines. Look at the diversity within the QH breed - reiners to jumpers, 14.2H to 17+.
I doubt the “working” Luso will go away in the breed… look at the popularity of the breed fairs and working equitation.
If you want to be competitive in dressage, you need a horse with less traditional iberian gaits…
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I think people should ride the horses that they like. It’s really not a contest between Warmbloods and Spanish Horses. Imagine how boring the world would be if we and our horses were all the same.
Sheesh!
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That’s exactly what I said, “If you want to be competitive in dressage”…get a warmblood.
Don’t change an old breed for the “dressage du jour” look. Just look at what happened to the US working cattle horse…aka, the Quarter Horse and how that breed has been bastardized.
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The OP was looking for information and opinions. Never said it was a contest. Of course we try to ride what we like but it helps to start with information.
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I am a Convert I moved away from the WB after honestly having a pretty terrible experience with the WB I owned. Horse was just difficult in every way we’re talking temperament, conformation and soundness. I find that there are a lot of WB’s out there who really struggle with the collected work and with their numbers having exploded in this country in the last 25yrs well there is a lot of average moving low quality horses available. After pouring my heart and soul into a WB and Dressage for 13yrs I had learned a lot, made it to 3rd level and earned my Bronze by sheer grit and determination. So when it came time for me to move on and buy my next horse I did a lot of soul searching and put together a list of requirements 1. Temperament 2. conformation and gaits 3. soundness / good feet and bone 4. the ability to do the collected work. When looking at this wish list and my budget I found that the WB’s that met that criteria were astronomically priced. Now yes I realize the PRE that I ended up purchasing was in no way inexpensive, but the same horse with WB papers would have cost be four times that I did pay because WB with temperament and the ability to collect are seriously hard to get and thus very expensive. So I started looking outside the box and considered many options what finally happened is I found what I wanted in a PRE and yes he has Dressage quality gaits the walk and canter are spot on amazing in this horse, every trainer that’s seen him has stated he has a BIG quality canter with plenty of jump. Walk has all the overtrack you could ever hope for. Yes I sacrificed on the trot I knew I was probably going to have to, but my goals are past 3rd level and involve the collected work plus I believe like Carl H that the trot can be improved. That doesn’t mean that I got a bad trot what I did get dose not have a lot of natural suspension but its in there and this horse has done excellent mediums. The rhythm is the trick keep it relaxed and slower then the steps are bigger and more swinging from there you build strength it will come. My PRE has very tiny amount of paddle i’ve seen WB’s with more paddling I actually believe that comes from having a more flexible shoulder and loose elbows. I don’t like any horse that paddles badly and I don’t like and would never buy a choppy sewing machine moving horse.
I disagree that breeding Iberian’s for movement that is more competitive in dressage is bad for the breed I think its the best thing, keeping them a small and obscure group of horses doesn’t promote the breed. Owning horses and doing any equestrian Hobby is very expensive people have to want to own these horses and making the breed an option for Dressage riders will be how they grow in popularity & numbers. They have to have a purpose for us to spend the resources on owning them. I don’t believe that breeding for better movement is going to eliminate the traditional PRE or Luso there will always be those horses bred and available. What will happen and is happening is that more people will have the option of the amazing temperament that is so innately part of these horses in a Dressage partner that is competitive.
The temperament on my PRE is just unbeatable he is so good about new things about traveling even god forbid stall rest doesn’t change his cheerful and inquisitive personality. I will say though that he isn’t a totally ammy ride he is spicy, responsive, sensitive and takes an independent seat & light connection and some well established riding skill. My trainer agrees that the PRE isn’t “always” a good choice for an amateur because of these qualities. Many amateurs need a push ride need something they can take a hold of in the contact and need to not be so reactive to the leg and seat aids. But for those ladies that have good riding skills and sensitivity these horses rock!
I realize that the Iberian horses are not a huge presence in the elite international levels of Dressage but I see them moving more and more in that direction we will see more of these horses on the international stage. Even now there are some absolutely amazing Lusitanos being shown GP in Europe and they are getting very good scores and performances from international judges. On the other hand at the regional and national levels here in the US you can absolutely be competitive on an Iberian yes you can attend and do well at a CDI! For most of us this would be an dream come true and quite the accomplishment. JMO
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I have one of each, and love them both. They both have strengths and weaknesses.
My PRE has three truly lovely gaits. He is dressage-bred from Spain. His canter is his best gait, and he’s supple in every way. He handles like a Ferrari, and is not a horse for an unbalanced rider but is never unsafe. He’s also just a lovely horse to own - he goes out anywhere with anyone, goes in the ring without fuss even if he hasn’t seen it before, hacks in the woods bareback, adores awards ceremonies, etc. He knows his freestyle music and lights up when he hears it. He’s really a people horse. His weakness is that he goes wide behind at the drop of a hat, and he doesn’t move over his back naturally in the trot. You have to ride for it every step, every day. He learned his 1-tempis in a day and has beautiful extensions, but lacks natural suspension in the trot. Piaffe and passage are slow to develop. He’s 11, and has shown through the CDI small tour and Regionals/Finals. With a few obvious exceptions in his career, he scores exactly what he earns.
My Dutch gelding is gifted in the suspension department, and maintains lovely relaxation. He has a CDI quality passage with minimal effort and no real training. He has lovely, swinging gaits, and it’s practically impossible to stop him from moving through his whole body. He makes things hurt that I never even knew I had, and I’ll be doing some core training over the winter to help me ride him better. He works every day on suppleness - laterally, longitudinally, and lower/lengthening the neck. I haven’t shown him yet, but hope to bring him out at PSG in the spring. He’s capable of a level of positive tension/brilliance that is breathtaking, but it’s trickier and takes so much more finesse. It falls apart spectacularly if it isn’t managed every stride. He’s less generous than my PRE in every way.
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And if you would read some of the responses, this type of thread almost always devolves into a contest, hence my comment. Again, sheesh!
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european warmbloods, love them.
especially the old lines like Cloudy’s with both dressage and jumping in the same horse.
I hope you had a great trip.
hey, where’s my german warmblood horse I asked you to bring back in carryon/overhead? I was ready to paypal you the money to buy her.
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Irish Draughts are supposed to have the face of a dutchess and the back end of a barmaid.
Surprisingly they are related most closely to Iberian breeds. http://www.irishdraught.com/display/…IDHSreport.pdf
The genetic relationships between ID and other populations either documented or alleged to have contributed to the formation of the Irish Draught population (Connemara, Kerry Bog Pony, Clydesdale, Cleveland Bay, Shire, Thoroughbred, Scottish Highland, Exmoor, Anatolian, Arab, Orlov plus 5 breeds from Spain and Portugal: Andalusian, Sorraia, Asturcon, Lusitano, CaballodeCorro) were investigated. The highest proportion of mtDNA sequence sharing was with Caballo de Corro (93%) closely followed by the Andalusian (83%). Table 2 illustrates the percentage of sequence sharing among 16 horse populations that may have contributed to the formation of the Irish Draught population. Population % Sharing
Irish Draught 100
Caballo deCorro 93
Andalusian 83
Clydesdale 80
Scotish Highland 75
Orlov 72
TB 68
Connemara 67
Exmoor 67
Kerry Bog Pony 67
Asturcon 62
Anatolian 60
Sorraia 60
Cleveland Bay 60
Shire 50
Lusitano 38
Arab 35
I have worn many hats over my 35 years in the horse industry, as a competitor, trainer, coach, judge and breeder (of both Swedish Warmbloods and Lipizzans). My early career was spent breeding SWB’s and I certainly had a great deal of success with them, and still have a few FEI horses in my barn out of my breeding program. That said, I also got to the age where I saw a need in our dressage community (and myself) for a horse that was a little more reasonable in both size and temperament–and frankly, at 55 I didn’t want to come off of one more 17-hand warmblood baby while trying to survive his first show experience!
When I began to compete with both my clients and myself on the Lipizzans, I found them to be such a wonderful asset to my program, I began to breed them as well. After having ridden and shown a number of Lusitanos and Andalusians as well, I am not even sure that I would classify the Lipizzans in the typical “baroque” model, as I find their temperament to be more baroque, but their gaits are closer to warmblood in terms of extension and suspension. And they ALL can piaffe and pirouette. I think that they are the perfect horse for the amateur that wants to have a more manageable FEI prospect that is smaller, sounder and more reasonable to ride than the typical warmblood, but still likes a horse that has an engine.
As for competition, we just competed at the USDF National Finals with 2 Lipizzans. Both placed 3rd in their classes (2nd and 4th level Freestyle). Another was 5th in the AA Grand Prix. Both of mine were also Nationally ranked USDF in the top 20 in the country overall. Judges have been very willing to score them appropriately if the test warrants.
Overall, I personally think that the power, scope and sheer athleticism of the modern warmblood will dominate our International scene for the foreseeable future. However, not every dressage enthusiast either wants to or can cope the whole warmblood package. That is where baroque horse breeds are a gift to many of us.
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Hahaha, well, the title (Baroque VERSUS Warmblood) sets the tone for a contest.
My original comment was “don’t restrict yourself to a single breed or type” - because there are the “stereotypes”, then there are the others. I can think of plenty of very bouncy Andalusians (I’ve ridden several), and plenty of pretty smooth Warmbloods. My Friesian stallion was like riding a cloud, he was so comfortable. He was also super compact, although people think of Friesians as longer, and his canter was a 10. I’ve also seen many Andies who were super hot and a bit scary - although most are not. There are exceptions in every single breed - it isn’t a contest, it is a matter of going out and finding the right individual.
That means asking a lot of questions up front - if you don’t want a horse that paddles, ask for video showing the horse coming at you, not just side video. If you are concerned about certain physical traits, ask for a conformation shot (no tack, no boots on the horse - hate when people post conformation shots and the horse is wearing polo wraps!).
The different types of horses have their pros and cons, and the stereotypes often (but not always) apply.
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My PRE mare is amazing. She was a broodmare for a while so we are getting back to work and removing some connection baggage. BUT when she is on…the horse is breath taking to watch.
I think it comes down to knowing what you like, and going for that in a horse. I know I like higher energy and very responsive horses, reasonable heights, and narrower builds, at least as far as saddle/leg position goes. I also want a horse who tends toward the upper level movements and don’t care so much about huge scores.
I tend to think of baroque horses as very round - not comfortable for me. However, I have seen some recently which absolutely fit my description to a T. I do not like the tight, fast types to ride - and while most can be trained out of it, at this point I don’t see a need to buy one who is that way at time of purchase (if I were shopping.) I am absolutely in love with a baroque horse who is far too large for me, who is being competed by a pro. Just a total love-bug doll personality, and he tries TOO hard and worries TOO much, so her rides are spent trying to convince him he’s good so he can relax. Absolutely adore him, and the pro is doing a fantastic job with him - I’d love a slightly younger version who was trained to relax all along, rather than the retraining she’s doing on him.
I also love my warmblood mare who is not 80%+ blow the competition away type, but who has a natural piaffe, changes and pirouettes. I bought her for her hind legs, and I was right in thinking they would do what I wanted well. Her gaits are VERY rideable, and she’s just a joy to work with.
My TB gelding is the love of my horsey life, but he’s challenging. Too big for me both in height and width, and his gaits are pretty big and flashy, and hard to sit - even my trainer thinks he can’t ride him to his FULL potential because his trot can get so enormous. I love TB-types, and some sensitive baroque-types have a lot in common. But a TB-type who is so big is not what I need in any future horse, either.
So many awesome comments and personal experiences, I currently own two Cleveland Bay crosses and a Dutch Warmblood. My last two UL horses were very different, an old style (heavy G line, Grannus) 17 hand tank of a Hanoverian mare with movement (like someone described in a response) that made things hurt you didn’t know you had… However collection was VERY VERY hard and because she was so big…it added to that challenge (I’m 5’7" so not tiny but holy cow was she a lot of horse… Sweet as they come but a Mack Truck). My second is a 16.3 very heavy built TB. He is 18 and coming into the last year of his competitive career, he has power for days but has always struggled with suspension and tension. Now back to my “youngins”. My two CB crosses, are out of the same dam, different sire, my mare can collect alllllll day and has lively suspension is about 16.1 very light in the hand, sweet at pie…but very very reactive to the leg and very much a one person horse, her brother is HUGE (over 17 hands and I’m not totally convinced he’s done growing…) Has suspension and is light in the hand, but struggles with natural collection, he is very trainable so I feel that will come. He has a personality of gold, is practically bomb proof to the point of being a but dull (and he’s 3/4 TB!! Go figure…). Last but not least my Dutch filly…its really come down to her and my gelding…she has the most spectacular gaits…loads of suspension…tons of natural collection…a “look at me attitude” however she is VERY reactive, overly dramatic about life and as a whole is the same age as my gelding…but probably a good year behind because of her immaturity. I guess the point of this ramble…and the original post is because my CB’s tend to perform a bit more like Iberian type horses (due to the influence from those breeds in CB’s) and my filly is a pretty typical modern Warmblood and I was really curious to see how one Vs. The other was being accepted in the show ring (I have spent the past 15 years primarily eventing and only doing small local rated dressage shows as warm ups or experience for young horses). Im trying to get all my ducks in a row before next spring. Thank you all again!!!
After my aqha mare had to be retired due to injury I started studying french classical dressage, The lesson horse i ride is a PRE and ill never go back! such smooth gaits, sensitive and light I love that most of the work I do is “mental riding” I don’t have to put out a lot of physical energy he holds him self balanced stays at what ever gait you ask for, stays on the bit with a loose reign, I am 26 with multiple health issues and The pre is amazing! its much more of a partnership that i have never experienced. Check out some books or videos on dominique barbier he studied with Nuno Oliveira. If i had to ride multiple horses a day like warmbloods or aqha I would not be able to handle how much physical energy i would have to put out, but could definitely ride multiple PRE. Watch some working equitation videos of PRE and lusitano horses, the stuff they do is unbelievable!
check this site out!
http://el-rocio-chiemsee.de/aktuelles/
