I know this pops up every now and then, but how do people feel about these two options for an UL dressage horse…and why? I have always been a WB person but after being introduced to the other side of the coin…its hard…both have some amazingly different qualities!
my personal opinion. Both are horses and both will do fine if you train them correctly…
As an ammy level rider, with no designs on much more than qualifying for regionals: I am now a lusitano convert, he is hands down the most fun horse I’ve ever ridden. Given my advancing age, I prefer his non-reactive disposition, but I’m also a fan of the sensitivity to training and aids. I love his 15.3 hand size. We are showing PSG, and planning I-1 sometime in the next couple months. He is not likely to beat a big moving well ridden WB, but we are competitive enough.
They are a different ride, and while they will be choppy/quick when tense or out of balance, the gaits can be bigger/smoother with relaxation. I frankly have learned a lot about me and my seat/aids from riding this horse, thanks to a good trainer who understands they are different than WBs.
And did I mention that he is easy on the eyes? Pretty never hurts, lol.
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As an older rider who has ridden a lot of TB’s and warmbloods, I think baroque may be the answer to older riders who don’t have the backs and the ability to follow the extreme gaits of some warmbloods. I see a lot of older people I know who gave been riding dressage a long time going to baroque.
I’d be interested in seeing what people who are feeling they are not as flexible as they were young and have ridden different types have to say about that/
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As a - ahem - “senior” rider, I think there is some truth to the comfort issue. It is also, IMO, easier to get my Lusitano forward than it was my WB. Therefore I dont have to work so darn hard just to get the motor revved.
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I have experience owning a TB, a WB, and a PRE. The former two were big movers with floaty gaits naturally. I am now a diehard PRE/Iberian horse fan. The intelligence and sensitivity is something I love. My PRE is a good horse but also a really weird horse :lol: but his weirdness aside, I’d choose him over a WB. He may not move as extravagant but he can perform an honest and accurate test. His gaits are much easier to sit than the WB and TB, so I could see why his style would be more appealing to an older rider. He also doesn’t take heavy aids, he’s a light ride.
I’d buy an Iberian horse again in a heartbeat…but one with a longer back because saddle fitting has been a nightmare. I’m either on his shoulders or his ass.
I think both breeds are competitive. I think any horse is that performs an accurate and through test. I am not blinded by flashy movement.
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I am a baroque convert after owning and breeding WBs from many years now. I love their intelligence, their people pleasing ways and their sensitivity without being silly. I now have a Lusitano X filly that I bred and am looking forward to working with her once she is started. She has been the smartest young horse I have ever had.
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After 25 years of owning and riding holsteiners, I was lucky enough to buy a PRE imported from Spain .I am close to 70 and still competing because of this wonderful horse. He is beautiful, kind, taught me to ride with whispered aids and has an engine that will not quit.
As another poster wrote , if he is relaxed his gaits can be quite large and extravagant. And that has made me a much better rider
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You can find smart, easy to ride horses of both breeds. It’s really about conformation when it comes to smoothness and ease of sitting the trot. I think the mistake most ammis make are buying BIG WBs or ones with fancy gaits that are harder to ride.
But I do think there is truth in that one is more likely to find an easy to ride Iberian with a good brain. It is harder to find the calm mind WB. Those with forward tend to have hot minds.
How easy off the aides a horse is truly depends on training. It takes consistent work and time to make a horse soft and on the aides. Don’t think most people understand what it takes. Iberians can become heavy and hard to ride if ridden wrong just as easily as any breed. I’ve ridden a lot of Andis that were trained poorly and sitting their trot is near impossible since they don’t use their backs properly. Or ones who need tons of leg because they were cranked in.
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A few years ago I was looking for a horse. I thought I’d look for a WB and rode a nice mare. She did everything I asked but… then I rode an Iberian (I think he was a PRE but I am not sure). He was SO opinionated! I laughed the entire time! Wound up buying an Andalusian. I now own two Lusos and will never look back.
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Take my comments with a grain of salt because a) I have never trained a horse up to UL and b) do not own or ride a baroque breed currently. This is based on my limited experience and observations of others who own baroque horses at the barn I board (or I know locally). I have always owned Tb’s, Tb/WB crosses, or most recently, a full WB. When I have ridden the baroque breeds (my experience has been on Andy’s) they felt very different to me. The trot was almost difficult to post because there was so little movement in their back. Their legs were quite expressive—but, I couldn’t feel any of that translating through their back. I also noticed that the canter seemed somewhat quick and lacking “jump”. However, I will say that it was much easier for me to keep my position stable because they don’t have the “bouncing ball” feeling I get when I ride my young WB. Keep in mind, these were not UL horses, but more of 1st level, trained mostly by amateurs.
I have also observed that these horses can have an impressive trot, but don’t have the best quality canter (but they may not be the best representatives of the breed). I would think any horse that is going to be successful at the upper levels would have to have a very good canter—because that’s the gait that will be hardest to change through training. So, if you are hoping for a horse with UL potential, then find one that has a good canter out of the box (no matter what breed!) Again, it may be my limited perspective that creates that generalization in my mind. On the other hand, I have been amazed at their rideability and temperament. The riders I know bought their Andy’s as unstarted youngsters and did most of the training themselves. One woman I know bought a 2 year old Andy (it was the first horse she ever owned) and was the first person to sit on the horse. She did have some help with training, but honestly, I would’ve thought that scenario was a recipe for disaster. Yet, the horse has been a completely solid partner for her and other than being a problem loader, the horse is a saint. There is a lot to be said for horses that are so kind and generous!
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Worth noting that these horses do not all fit in one bucket, though there are similarities: If you read about the Andalusians and Lusitanos you will find that the former will generally have more action in their gaits and somewhat lighter hind end, while the later are “flatter” movers with strong hind ends. (some places you will read that andys bred to go to town, lusi’s to go to work) Both are to be short backed, but that is not always the case- we’ve had two andalusians at our barn that are surprisingly long in the back. . Friesians are also considered a “baroque” horse, and they obviously much different in breeding, movement, conformation. Lippizans have Spanish blood but not sure what else.
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I wanted a horse with talent for the upper levels, but a very level headed disposition. I figured I’d be overhorsed by most WBs with upper level talent, so I went PRE. My baby is just getting under saddle, but as far as walking around the grounds and exploring, she’s the most level headed horse I could ask for. She’s amazing. And not just in her brain. She’s a beautiful mover. I’m so excited to see where she takes us.
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This is my opinion but it’s based in fact to a certain degree - you will probably not find many Baroque horses in UL competitive dressage. They are not en vogue: the sport has moved towards warmblood sport horses with bigger gaits and more pizazz. I even heard a well-respected judge once say that the paddling front ends of many an Andy or Spanish-bred horse is a movement fault and he dings that heavily in tests…anyone who knows anything about these horses know that “paddling” in the movement is not a fault and is considered characteristic of the breed (obviously excessive paddling should be considered when purchasing a horse as a lot of torque on the knee can affect soundness long term, but that’s not what this judge was referring to…)
I personally do not care for most warmbloods bred for dressage. Can I ride the gaits? Yes. Do I enjoy it? No, and I honestly do not understand why breeders continue to breed horses with gaits that are hard to ride.
But perhaps I am a bit biased. I love Spanish horses, having owned a couple and worked with more than a few. Their temperaments are second to none and if trained correctly, I find they are more athletic and versatile than many a nice warmblood. Like any breed, buy good stock and look for three clear gaits and balanced conformation and you’ll have a very nice riding partner for life.
As an aside, I do hesitate to put Friesians under the baroque category because they are really carriage-bred horses and I find they tend to have the same struggles with under saddle work that most carriage-bred horse’s do. I do not consider them in the same category as Spanish-bred horses when one refers to a “baroque” horse, although they tend to be lumped in due to their ancestors stemming from the Baroque era.
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I go for the best of both worlds! Friesian/Warmblood crosses! Prefer the kinder, more people-oriented temperament of the Baroque horse, and the Friesian is perhaps the most engaging personality ever. And I’ve known many Friesians, and they are always SOUND. But I want a bit more athleticism, so crossed with Warmblood.
I think this is a very personal choice - some people like the elasticity and athleticism of the Warmblood, some prefer the temparament of the Baroque horse, some like the smaller gaits of the Iberian horse. Go out, try different horses, don’t restrict yourself to a single breed or type, and buy the horse you enjoy riding!
Really? I can think of quite a few - Friesian, Lusitano, Andalusian showing at the FEI levels. Go to the USDF All Breeds, and look at the results, you’ll see plenty. Realize the TOTAL population of these 3 breeds (in the US) is probably far fewer then a single Warmblood registry (especially KWNP, Oldenburg NA or GOV, or Hanoverian, all of which are huge populations. But you’ll still see plenty of them. Maybe you are in a region with fewer Baroque horses, but I see them in all the shows in California.
Your “well respected” judge is ignoring what is taught in all the judging programs. Paddling is NOT a serious fault. Eve in the “sport horse in hand/DSHB” judging program, it is not considered a fault, unless it interferes with the horse’s reach and scope. I would love to know which judge this is, who ignores what is taught in the judging programs, and dings horses for something that is NOT suppose to affect the score.
Breeders breed for what is marketable. And there is a huge market for the big moving Warmbloods. Of course, they are not for every rider. But at the Olympic level, the Warmbloods still dominate, so of course, this is the focus of the breeders.
Again, really? Friesians were the original riding horses, then market demand turned the breeding toward carriage horses (Warmbloods were also bred for carriage), then in more recent years, some of the breeders are purpose breeding for sport.
Baroque has nothing to do with carriage or riding, and everything to do with type and history. Baroque horses are the Lusitanos, Andalusians, Friesians, and Lippizans. Whether you “hesitate” to acknowledge that or not is a bit irrelevant.
And they may “struggle” (your term), but at the USDF Dressage Finals, Friesians and Friesian crosses dominated the Grand Prix Freestyle, and were present at the FEI levels. So struggle or not, they have been very successful at the upper levels, in spite of their small population in the US. I think many horses and riders struggle at the upper levels, and most never make it. Even in the Warmblood population, most horses do not make it to the FEI levels.
I’m not sure where you are located, but I’m in California which is a pretty big dressage area, and we see a lot of Baroque horses doing well at the FEI levels - Iberian and Friesian.
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Personally I prefer WBs. I was a working student at a Lusitano breeding farm back in the day and really like the breed but man, their way of moving just murders my back. I can sit a big WB trot no problem but for whatever reason the way most baroque horses move is just… Ugh.
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@MysticOakRanch, I’m in northern New England, which I imagine would explain quite a bit of your dissent over my post. You don’t find very many Lusitanos, Andys, etc here. Not many Friesians, either, although there is a Friesian breeder in my state but she a small operation with only a couple foals each year.
The ancestors of Friesians were used as warhorses, but I hardly think that makes the modern day Friesian the “original riding horse” - that’s a topic highly debatable based on geographic location, and I’m not sure any one breed can claim that. As it is, the Friesian was crossed with the Andalusian back in the 16th/17th centuries to create a lighter-built horse suitable for carriage driving and agricultural work. The other three Baroque breeds do not have this history of use as being bred for carriage. That’s the history that makes me separate them in my mind from other “Baroque Era” horses…it’s a personal distinction for me, I’m not sure why it offended you so.
I’m not going to post the name of the judge for what I hope are obvious reasons. I don’t care for them as a judge, to say the least.
And yes, I am aware of how market demand works, you interpreted my words too literally. It was more a lament about WHY the market demands these huge moving warmbloods…but I digress.
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This has been HUGELY informative! I had an accident about 15 years back (bad fall on a XC course) and over the past few years the back and hip issue it caused has gotten worse. I grew up sitting the big WB gates and can ride them, but not without pain. It wasnt until recently that a trainer I started working with really introduced me to “the other side”… It was kind of life changing. After my son is born next year and my current UL horse starts to slow down (he’s 18) I am going to decide to either keep my very large, hot, reactive, and flamboyant 5 year old WB filly…or sell her and look into something different, we shall see, thank you all!
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slp2, I think you will find that more and more Iberians are being bred FOR dressage with little paddling and more back movement rather than a leg mover… there seems to be distinctly different lines now, “traditional” and more for dressage.
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