Bashkir Curlies and "impure canters"

[Dr_Doolittle]

I just gave a lesson to a brand-new student yesterday–she’s an eventer, and a competent rider (I teach lower level eventing), but she has a Bashkir Curly; rather an “unconventional breed” for the sport. (She sort of “rescued him”, so got him for free; long story, but bottom line is that she didn’t “select” him as her future event horse.)

I’m unfamiliar with the breed, and just got my first look at him yesterday. He is VERY compact, a little tight and stiff in the neck and shoulders (we did some loosening exercises to start out, which helped quite a bit), and tends to curl up into a bit of a ball. I haven’t seen him jump yet, but apparently he has an amazing jump–but it’s more of a “vertical leap” as opposed to a “jumping across” the obstacle, which leads his owner to believe that he might not be able to handle the big spreads and the longer related distances as he goes up the levels. (He’s done two Horse Trials at Beginer Novice.)

He has a very nice trot with good reach and suspension, and a decent walk. His canter is problematic, and she told me initially that he tends to swap out behind (he’s youngish, 6–so I was thinking it might be a strength/balance issue), but after watching him, it looks for all the world as though he is attempting to “gait”: he starts out fine, then gets really lateral, then “skips” behind, and his gait changes–it almost looks like he is trying to do a running walk. At that point he swaps behind, gets unbalanced, and she transitions down to trot and picks up the canter again. Sometimes he swaps back to a united canter by himself, but then wants to “skip”, get markedly lateral, and swap again. (This is all on a 20-30 meter circle.) It’s very odd to watch, and I asked her: are some Curlies gaited? To which she replied “yes, some are and some aren’t”. She also told me that he is able to maintain the pure canter when he’s out on x-country, or approaching a jump with some pace at the canter.

His stifles seems fine, and apart from some inherent stiffness in his neck and shoulders, he appears to be sound.

Does anyone have any experience with this breed? I’m just wondering whether this is going to be an ongoing issue with this horse, or whether it will be “improveable” with balancing and strengthening exercises (some of which I have already suggested that she try with him.)

TIA!

[narcisco]

I know someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that a Bashkir curly is sort of a “coat” breed rather than a true breed. (Like a palomino or pintos are “color” breeds, not real breeds.) In other words, any horse with the curly gene and coat can be admitted to the registry, regardless of breed.

I had a registered Bashkir curly who was a mustang. Seems like I’ve seen Percherons who were Bashkir curlies. So, I would look to whatever breed the horse the horse is.

In fact, this is his picture used in a breed synopsis: http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/bashkircurly/index.htm

From the American B.C. website:

Due to the years of out crossing, you will find Curly Horses with different conformation, size and weight. This influence will probably continue for the next five to ten generations of Curly-*to-Curly breeding. However, these horses will be registered as long as they meet ABCR criteria.

[Dr_Doolittle]

Interesting; I was under the impression that they were a Russian breed (this guy is, apparently…He has NO tail, and a really short almost non-existant wavy mane. His summer coat is coarse; I didn’t get a chance to see his curly winter coat!)

[FairWeather]

Curlies can shed their mane and tail entirely once a year from what I understand.

[Coppers_mom]

Check to make sure that she’s not doing something differently with her body when she goes from galloping position to full seat. Some people will lock their elbows or become stiffer in their seat. If he’s not very strong anyways, she could be blocking the energy enough to make him cross canter and want to move the way he does. When I’m having a sack of potatoes day, it helps me if I start in two point, and move slowly into the three point, and gradually progress into a full seat, making sure that my leg stays supportive, elbows soft, and seat following.

Also, make sure that she’s not making it worse when he starts going all wonky. Watch that she stays in the correct position, and keeps him forward without blocking him with her hand.

He could also just be getting tired. Galloping freely across a field isn’t as difficult as going on a 20 meter circle in a collected frame. If he’s not used to the kind of work you’re asking of him in lessons, his cross cantering could be a response to fatigue. Try stopping before he starts messing around, and see if he gets better and stronger over time.

[twofatponies]

Given he can do a nice canter cross country I would suspect he just isn’t very coordinated or balanced on a circle. Maybe his owner has done little practice there (not as fun as cc!). It took my mare-with-a-lousy-canter a good long while to really learn to use herself well on a circle in the ring.

I think curliness can come in any breed (though it’s rare) but there is a more common old-line bunch of them with stock-horse origins from the west. Maybe from the mutation getting concentrated in a couple of ranch herds?

[Ajierene]

My understanding of the Bashkir was that the coat was discovered on a horse and the coat was cultivated. I checked the website and the ‘Bashkir’ name derives from a horse found in the Bashkir region of Russia that had this coat pattern, but that horse is not directly linked with the American Bashkir horse.

The Bashkir horse was discovered out west and bred for the coat. So Bashkirs should be similar in style to the Quarter horse/Paint/Appaloosa but are more likely similar to the Mustang in that they are ‘mutts’ and can have a range of conformations and attitudes.

So, pay attention to the horse itself and the rider. There is nothing in the breed history that specifically makes cantering difficult.

[Fitte]

Yes, I have experience with these horses and I am an event trainer. I work with a family that breeds hypo-allergenic sport horses, the teenage daughter trains them up a bit and then sells them. Here’s what I’ve learned.

The curly gene can come from different breeds of horses. You can find it in mustangs,and in some gaited horses. These types of horses were the foundation for the American Bakshir Curly Horse breed who all have the curly gene, though it might not be expressed in a curly coat and you could get a flat coated horse.

I haven’t gotten to work with a purebred curly, the ones I’ve been helping this family with are 50% american bakshir curly. 2 of the 3 we’ve worked with so far have exhibited problems with the canter exactly as you have described, they look like they are trying to gait, especially in their transitions, or in the corners. One of them sold before we had him trained enough to resolve the issue, the second one is improving steadily with solid dressage training and we are seeing it less and less. The second is also an outstanding jumper and has a bright future as a lower level event horse. Both those horses had verifiable Missouri fox trotters in the curly horse part of their pedigree.

The third one is half TB and half ABC. She’s just started cantering under saddle and is very coachy in her movement, but hasn’t looked like she is trying to gait yet.

[FriesianX]

I’m NO expert in these horses, but did meet someone a couple of years ago who bred them, and the ones I saw move, had normal canters - and none of them were gaited?

Now - I have a friend with a young Warmblood mare who does that weird, disunited canter thing - we call it her 4th gait, the crotter or tranter (depending on how it looks that day). With strength, it did get a lot better, but it is something she does ocassionally resort to, and it isn’t pretty :no:

[Tucked_Away]

Just a datapoint, but the one Curly I’ve met (belongs to a friend) has a very nice canter. More hunter-type than dressage, but definitely pure.

He’s a neat little horse. Very smart and good-minded.

[GreekDressageQueen]

A good friend of mine had a Bashkir Curly by Spartacus, a well known foundation stallion for the breed. She bought him as a weanling to do eventing and trail riding. He was really compact, great little mover, and a just super awesome horse. He was smart and easy to train. Unfortunately, he had OCD (which nobody knew or expected) and a huge piece of his hock broke off one day while he was just running around in his paddock. He was only 3 at the time and we were just starting to work with him. It was so sad. He is now just a pet/pasture buddy. BUT to answer the OP’s question, he has a terrific canter before the accident and didn’t have any problems with his movement. In fact, he just looked like a small warmblood pony (without the super elastic gaits) with curly dirty blond hair.

[pintopiaffe]

I think it has more to do with conformation than breed… and TIME and strength and correct riding are the answers.

My guy is SUPER compact. Shortest back on the planet. And yes, he had trouble with the canter under saddle for a looooooong time.

I simply did not ASK for canter under saddle until he was really strong in SI & HI. He had to get strong behind, and loose in the back AND poll before he could canter properly under saddle.

He also has a fairly extravagant trot. His canter, now that he is working in/around 3rd level, when he is fit, is just as extravagant. BUT, if he’s not fit, not strong, he’ll swap behind (because he can) and it’s awful to ride. Again, I simply DON’T DO IT until he’s fit enough.

I wouldn’t exactly say it’s impure. When he’s correct, it’s pure. But he can swap behind just as easily as not. He’s VERY athletic. But he is tight in the back and poll–common to baroque type builds/movers, and can ‘look’ pretty without really having given in either. Get him truly supple, and man oh man is he a blast. Correct, PURE and with a really nice JUMP to the canter.

Changes will be interesting to work on with him. He’d just as soon go around disunted as change truly. He has PLENTY of jump when he’s strong enough and fit enough so it’s going to be entirely up to ME, the RIDER to be correct enough and quick enough in my timing to get a correct change.

We lunge at the canter on a 20m circle with no side reins, and let him stretch and build topline. Any swapping behind is corrected. Once it is pure and strong(er) without sidereins, we add sidereins and ask for him to carry himself a bit. By this time we’re up to a good degree of strength under saddle as well–combinations of long, slow distance and cardio work, with ‘dressage’ work interspersed every-other-ride.

At six, we only cantered when he offered… usually avoided corners… or at least no more than one, and preferred nice straight stretches and uphill.

Give it time and correctly getting him THROUGH. I bet it’ll come together.

[ESG]

There is a Bashkir Curly that shows GP in this area (region 9). Martha Diaz, an incredibly talented rider/trainer from El Paso, brought him up the levels and got him to GP. Cute guy, with the thick neck and compact conformation that others have mentioned, and absolutely no problems with the canter (his one tempis are just fine).

[Dr_Doolittle]

Thanks for all the replies! I didn’t get in until late, so will mull all this over more comprehensively tomorrow

[pintopiaffe]

Sorry–clarification–didn’t mean to imply my guy is Baskir. He is 15/16 Arab.

Just pointing out the conformation/movement similarities! :uhoh:

[PiaffePlease]

A few years ago I rode a Bashkir and she had a pure trot but not a pure canter. It felt like a gaited canter. It was like she couldnt figure out how to canter correctly. It was hard to get her out of this canter, but really pushing with the seat and asking her to go more forward helped.

Most Baskirs are from mustangs and QHs. The curly coat isnt something found in just any breed. Some do shed out the mane and tail, therefore they are very short. This horse sounds like a typical Bashkir, compact, short back, and hardy. Good luck!!