Hi,
Can anyone tell me their feelings/experiences with
the Innova, especially about the reg. vs. extended block.
Thank you!-- Khat
Biggest thing–if you sit in one and hate it, try the other. For some absolutely bizarre reason the seat feels entirely different based on the blocks.
The Innovas are flocked with Bates’ CAIR system. Most saddles are flocked with wool, or some other synthetic fiberous material. If you squeeze a piece of wool, the wool between your fingers compresses, and the rest of the wool stays the same.
Now, imagine squeezing a balloon - the air that was in the part of the balloon you squeezed displaces to the rest of the balloon. If you are sitting on a CAIR saddle, which is basically flocked with balloons, your weight in the saddle makes the balloons displace their air, causing pressure points.
A CAIR saddle made a horse of mine lame in three days. I’m not the only one with a story like this.
I’ve sat in the Innova, and I liked it, from a rider’s perpsective, but I would not put anything air-flocked on my horses’ backs, ever. There’s a reason saddles have been flocked with wool for eons and eons - it works!
dressage diosa have you ever actually SEEN a cair panel dropped and seen how LITTLE air is in there??
Cair panels are mostly FOAM. wth a small amount of air in it.
I LOVE my innova- don’t like the extended block- i think it’s just too muh- though i didn’t notie a difference in FEEl when i sat in the extended block. First two circles of posting trot though mine was DIGGING into my thigh (ok i have thunder thighs) then a walk transition opened my hip and never felt it again (but boy the moment of panic there i had already sold my old saddle L). I took 3 months off riding this winter and haven’t ever felt that since.
WHAT do i like about it?? Fairly “open” seat but a high enough cantle for some good support
[QUOTE=neVar;3219464]
dressage diosa have you ever actually SEEN a cair panel dropped and seen how LITTLE air is in there??[/QUOTE]
Yes. There was enough air in the Bates I rode in to cripple a horse of mine in three days. And I’ve met lots and lots of other folks who’ve had similar problems, all on horses with very dynamic backs.
Naturally, there must be also lots of people who love them, or Bates would have stopped producing them. 
The OP asked for opinions, and mine is thus: there are so many inexpensive new saddles, and quality used saddles, with more traditional flocking materials that it wouldn’t be worth it for me.
DD- i guess my question (ahh i sat on this almost let this go) is that I have yet to see CAIR/FLAIR/WOOL/FOAM Cripple a horse. SADDLE FIT?? YES but the actual FLOCKING MATERIAL>>>> NOPE.
I"m just trying to decide how you narrowed it down to the fact it was the CAIR panel that ‘crippled’ the horse vs the saddle’s fit (including YES the panels contact/fit).
I bought an Isabel, the exact same size and model that this particular horse’s previous rider used. Hers was older, flocked with whatever synthetic wool that Bates flocked their saddles with before CAIR. Mine was CAIR. Three days, so back sore he was unrideable. Called previous rider, who told me “Oh no, I tried the CAIR saddle on him and another horse, and they both got very very sore, so I stayed with the older one.”
I lack your saddle fit qualifications, neVar, but I observed a very serious flaw with the design of the saddle, and since that time I’ve met several other people with similar stories. Perhaps their misfortune was caused by poor fit, regardless of CAIR. I’m not sure what else to blame in my situation.
None of this really answers the OPs question, so I’d be happy to discuss this further via PM to leave her thread in peace, if there’s anything else you’d like to know.
the cair panels are not the same depth/shape as the wool flocked ones on every model.
There could have been significantly diffferent panel contact in the wool panel vs the cair panel and yes that would mean that the cair version would not be a good choice for that horse! but it’s not the cair ITSELF that would be causing the issue.
Have a saddle with CAIR. My saddler added flocking in parts because he said the panels didn’t overlap at points and so caused some bridging. Horse never seemed sore backed before the extra flocking but do think the saddle fits better now. Not terribly fond of the CAIR myself. Wish they’d always offer the option of regular flocking.
yes, it was a hijack, but an interesting one for those of us obsessed with such things! Thanks both DD & NeVar for your posts!
The blocks on the Innova are meant to do different things. The extended block fits most tall slender riders that have long legs. It opens up your pelvis and pushes your legs back slightly. The regular block fits most of the rest of the people. I am a short rider-5’1" that is “long” in the thigh. I fit the regular block very well and find that the extended block is too much. It tips me a bit forward and onto the front of my pelvis…OUCH! I do find the saddle really comfortable.
CAIR panels are meant to actually rid the saddle of any pressure points. If there is pressure on one spot and a hole in another the air simply fills in the gap and removes the pressure point. Not all saddles are going to fit all horses. I agree that it is the fit and not the flocking material that hurts the horse’s back. I do have to question the phrase “lots of people have had problems” as a lot of people to some is 2-3, while to others it is 50-100.
My experience with the Innova is limited to the “fake horse” saddle stand at the tack shop…but just from that sitting, I could tell the extended blocks would not work for me. I’m heavy in the thigh. As agentdressage mentioned, it tipped me forward at the pelvis and sent me into an “arched back” position (very uncomfortable for my ailing spine…). The saddle with the regular blocks, however, was quite different. It felt quite different…very secure and comfortable. It is a saddle that I definitely would try, except…
…the Cair panels and the general fit of the Bates/Wintec saddles. The panels on the Cair saddle are so hard that, personally, I wouldn’t dream of riding in it without some sort of “buffer” pad (e.g. Mattes), which, I finally decided, defeats the purpose of the Cair. Also, the shape of the tree does not work (tree itself nor the gullet widths) for two of the horses in my barn (and they are not similarly built at all).
Good luck!!
Not answering the OP, but those of you who ride in/have tried out an Innova, how wide was the twist? Where are the stirrup bars set? I ride in a Wintec Isabelle, and one thing I really appreciate about it is the extremely narrow twist and set-back stirrup bars. I’m 5’ with fairly long legs, and I NEED a narrow twist just to feel like I’m not “floating” 6 inches above my horse! :winkgrin:
As to the discussion of CAIR and Wintec/Bates saddle fit in general, I will agree that these saddles do NOT fit every horse. Case in point, mine. My Isabelle tends to slide forward and end up almost on my mare’s shoulders. I use a sheepskin half pad, to minimize pressure points (although, as mentioned, there shouldn’t be any pressure points) and maximize airflow (I really don’t think that synthetic saddles breathe like leather/wool-flocked saddles, even with a cotton saddle pad), and I just end up having to get off in the middle of my ride to slide my saddle back. It should be mentioned, however, that my mare is extremely roly-poly with ZERO whither, so I’m sure that doesn’t help! 
Eventually I will get a wool-flocked (possibly custom) saddle, but until then, the Wintec is great.
Sorry, I just realized I didn’t answer the OP at all! Oh well, hopefully we will both get answers!
To answer Dressage (pea) nut: Being short with longer legs as well I know what you mean about needing a narrow twist. I really only like Passier or Hermes twists. When I tried the Innova I LOVED it! It was super comfy…not too wide. Not super narrow, but I felt like my leg was in good position and that I had enough contact through my thigh. (which I find the biggest problem with the wide twists) As for the stirrup bars, I didn’t notice that they were too far forward or back-seemed just right.
The leather is way softer than the Wintec panel. I felt a Wintec at the store and it was super hard! The Innova was nice and squishy!
i agree i find the cair panels on the wintec’s too hard. this is mostly due to the fabric (synthetic) leather IMO.
The Innova is ‘softer flocked’ with teh cair then the isabell i found too- i prefer it over the isabell for the firmness of the panels.
I have an Innova with extended blocks, it is the most comfortable saddle I have ever owned for me. I love this saddle. I am 5.6 and 160 pounds (not exactly thin but very muscled).
I have Percherons, we have about five under saddle currently, we have had no issues with the Isabel (which I can’t stand), the Wintec Pro or the Innova on fit with the horses. NO soreness whatssoever.
i’d peg the innova’s twist as narrow- maybe a hair narrower then the isabell i find it more comfortable (the isabell is a bit ‘square’ and seems to have a line under my thigh that i don’t like). Innova’s stirrup bar is quite back (similar to the isabell). The innova was designed wit help form Isabell so quite a few similar ideas/fits to it… but i prefer it- less ‘square’ feeling- more smooth lines
I own an Isabell, and recently had the opportunity to ride in an Innova.
I have to say the twist felt relatively similar, but overall the Innova gave me an even more secure feeling than the Isabell (and that’s saying quite a bit, as I love my Isabell and before the Innova was the best saddle I’d sit in for my position).
Unfortunately I don’t know if the saddle I tried was the regular block or the extended. I would guess the regular, though, as the gal who owns it is quite petite. I really liked it and found it was a very easy saddle to fine my correct position in (and the clinician I was working with must have agreed, because she commented that my position was very good).
Spectrum.
For what it’s worth, a mare in our barn is very hard to fit for some reason. She’s Oldenburg, with a relatively flat wither and back. Her owner tried numerous different saddles on her, including custom. The Innova is the only one that works for this mare, and both the owner and my trainer (who trains and shows the mare) like its feel to ride in.
As everyone else says (and as Bates says on its website), no saddle fits every horse, changeable gullet or not. In my mind the changeable gullet simply helps a saddle that otherwise fits well to adjust to the horse as the horse changes over time and with work.
If anyone really doesn’t like the CAIR, I understand that it is easy enough to have the panels restuffed with wool.
