I am curious if anybody has compared the two saddles to each other. I am wondering if the Bates is worth the extra money… I currently have the Wintec Wide, and while it fits my horse well, there are some things about it that I don’t particularly like about it for myself. I have read that a couple people think that the twist on the Bates is narrower than Wintec, and that panels tend to conform to the horse better. Can anybody confirm or deny that?
Personally, I can’t stand synthetic saddles, so a leather saddle is always worth the extra money in my book.
I don’t know about the twist, but I agree that leather panels mold to the horse better than synthetic.
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I had a Bates Hunter/Jumper that I loved for me,unfortunately, my mare did not agree and I ended up selling it.
I have ridden in the Wintec wide and my Bates definitely had a narrower twist. However, it was not a hoop tree like the Wintec wide. I think if you got a Bates with a hoop tree the twist would be the same as the Wintec since they are supposedly built on the same tree.
The Bates was an altogether more comfortable saddle for the rider, I’m not sure if my mare objected to the Cair panels, or if the shape was just wrong for her (maybe both?).
I know I have heard of horses that have objected to the CAIR panels. Thankfully mine doesn’t seem to care one way or the other.
I am feeling pretty skeptical about the reviews I read that claimed the Bates Wide didn’t feel as wide as the Wintec Wide, since they are both on the same tree. Unless they did something to the seat to make it feel more padded. I think the only benefit would be that the leather would break into my body and the panels would conform a bit better.
Ok, I own the wintec pro dressage with contour blocs, which is the bates innova, but have ridden in the bates isabell. I like both. I’ve also ridden a lot in the wintec 2000 and the bates pro jump.
I like all of them.
But like with any saddle, it all depends on the fit on the horse and on the rider.
I rode in my wintec pro dressage on a lot of horses, but on ONE of these, a broad but short backed horse, I did not like the way my saddle felt on that horse. While it technically fit, I wasn’t comfortable.
I think saddles are so important and such an investment, you just have to try individual saddles out for yourself.
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I’d rather have synthetic than Bates leather.
If you are planning to school, hack, jump and show in this saddle more than 3x a week please buy a saddle that a fitter can say fits your horse so many people only buy the synthetic because it’s a cheaper route but when you’re paying upwards of 5k in vet bills to fix your horses back would’ve been cheaper to buy the 1-2k fitted leather model. I personally hate Bates synthetic models as I haven’t had a god fit on any type of horse. Only a fan of the wintec Isabella.
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I like how the saddle fits my horse and myself, but I am not jumping very high. Mostly doing dressage type work so the straighter flap is nice for that. I can still take my stirrups up for jumping, though just barely. I can see that somebody that did more than 2 foot would maybe need a more forward flap saddle.
I have checked and re-checked the saddle and the panels are making nice even contact along her back, and she doesn’t show any signs of discomfort.
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“Bates synthetic” would be the Wintec saddles. I went with the Wintec because they do actually fit my horse, it is just a nice bonus that they are fairly cheap. I do really wish that it was leather though, and I find that the synthetic material makes me sweat more than my leather saddle does. I also am finding myself increasingly annoyed by the constant squeak, lol!
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I recently purchased a Wintec Pro AP. I’ve also been recently riding in my instructor’s Bates jump saddle (not 100% sure on the model, but it’s CC with a very forward seat).
I think I like my Wintec more, but that’s possibly because it just fits me better. I might change my mind if I were in a Bates more appropriately sized for me; instructor has a much longer leg/thigh. The leather quality on the Bates I’ve been riding in surprised me: it’s very hard. But I suppose that could be a good thing from a durability standpoint. I just expected a softer and more supple saddle for the price point. The Bates leaves me sore in the pelvic region where the Wintec does not, but again, that might just be a rider fit thing.
@cruisecontrol 's comments make zero sense to me and I’m not sure if he/she would like to expand on them to clarify. I don’t understand how the leather on a Bates will prevent back soreness. It’s a near identical seat design, tree, and panel system on most all models. You can get both flocked or Cair to suit your preference. If a saddle doesn’t fit your horse, it doesn’t fit your horse period and you should consider a different brand entirely. Changing the material on the seat/flaps won’t help if the tree does not agree with your horse’s conformation. I also think most people on COTH are savvy and aware enough to consider saddle fit if/when approaching upwards of $5K in vet bills for back problems. Many saddle fitters DO recommend synthetic saddles like Wintec when they are an appropriate fit for the horse.
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Recently bought a new Bates, wool flocked not cair and spoke with Bates they said the tree was NOT the same tree in the Wintec. I thought the wintec was cheap and when I saw the cair panels at a saddle maker shop I laughed, sort of very small heavy duty zip lock bag filled with air. Saddle repair man was complaining because people want to replace the cair panels with wool and there is just a tiny space to do that. Just repeating what I was told. My Horse much perfers the wool flocked and I found CAIR to be a hard seat. Air doesn’t compress it is hard and you feel everything, horses must hate it.
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@cruisecontrol 's comments make zero sense to me and I’m not sure if he/she would like to expand on them to clarify. I don’t understand how the leather on a Bates will prevent back soreness. It’s a near identical seat design, tree, and panel system on most all models. You can get both flocked or Cair to suit your preference. If a saddle doesn’t fit your horse, it doesn’t fit your horse period and you should consider a different brand entirely. Changing the material on the seat/flaps won’t help if the tree does not agree with your horse’s conformation. I also think most people on COTH are savvy and aware enough to consider saddle fit if/when approaching upwards of $5K in vet bills for back problems. Many saddle fitters DO recommend synthetic saddles like Wintec when they are an appropriate fit for the horse.[/QUOTE]
I think you are correct and that’s what I meant if a saddle fitter thinks the synthetic is the way to go for you and your horse then more power to you. I’ve never been a fan of the Bates I’ve ridden in and really only sort of happy with the Wintec Isabella but everyone is different. Also I’m not sure about the twist but again I’d ask a fitters opinion based on my horse. I’d love to be able to take the synthetic route if i could but my back won’t tolerate it and my saddle fitter found us a great option. Good luck in your endeavors OP keep us posted!
I used to work very closely with Bates and Wintec saddles, and they are the same company who makes them so in terms of twist, it depends on what saddles you’re comparing because a lot of the trees will be the same depending on what you’re looking at. Which saddles are you looking at? (Sorry if it’s above, I didn’t read every comment).
In terms of CAIR, it’s like with any horse, sometimes they fit and sometimes they don’t. They are meant to fit a large variety of horses, and do. As for the CAIR panels being cheap as per someone’s comments, believe me they’re not. They’re tough to break and do actually work as advertised - IF they are fitted properly. Personally, I do not like how the CAIR panels fit my horse in the Bates jumping saddles across the line, but I bought an Isabell dressage saddle and it fits him great and I love it. The gullet system is really easy to change, and both brands use the same gullets and gullet system. The wide system should fit about the same in both Bates and Wintec since it’s the same gullets going into them.
It really comes down to what fit you and your horse best, and what you’re looking for. The Wintec EquiSuede is actually really comfortable, but personally I don’t like synthetic or the way it wears (growing up in the H/J world, my perception has been skewed). Bates leather is okay, not a top of the line saddle in my opinion but great for the value. Regardless of what you buy, check in with a saddle fitter to make sure you get the best fit for your horse, and don’t be scared of the CAIR system! It comes down to what feels best and what fits best for you and your horse. There is also a shim kit you can buy to customize the CAIR panels to fit best.
Feel free to PM me for more info, again I know these saddles VERY well.
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I am looking at the Wintec Wide vs the Bates Wide. That’s too bad that the twist will be the same. I was hoping, based on a couple of reviews saying that the Bates was a little more comfortable/cushy that the twist might be a little bit more forgiving.
Also, it looks like Bates/Wintec is moving away from offering flocked and offering their CAIR in everything, especially the wide version. I was wondering why I couldn’t find any flocked anywhere for sale, so sent them an email. Could be good news/bad news depending upon which side you are on.
The shape of the Wintec tree has always fit my mare well, I have been lucky in that. She did outgrow the XW gullet, which is why we ended up with the Wide.
With a wide saddle, you’re going to have a hard time finding a narrow twist. It’s all about preference - personally I find the Bates saddles overall more comfortable than Wintec, but I bet you can find one to test ride to see for yourself! Are you looking at the AP wides or the Wide Dressage? As a whole, the Bates and Wintec line doesn’t offer a very narrow twist especially in the wide saddles. I know my Isabell feels wide but then I have a draft x so everything feels wide on him.
They’ve moved away from flocked completely unless you special order or find older ones (whether new or used) on the market still. I wouldn’t be scared of the CAIR system, I highly suggest trying it out and seeing if you like it or not before writing it off completely. Bates has moved away from their wholesale distributor and are now independent in the US, you could try to locate a saddle rep depending on your location, or happy to suggest a retailer to test ride or purchase through!
I knew I would be giving up some comfort as my mare continued to get wider and wider… :lol: With the Duett I had I remember that at first the twist felt awful, but I gradually got use to it. So far with the Wintec I haven’t found that point where I start to feel comfortable.
I may end up just having to try one, as you suggested. I do really like how this brand fits my mare.
I am just a little leery of the CAIR panels as I had a saddle a few years ago that had one panel deflated, thankfully I caught it quickly, and I know other people have had the same issue. I am also curious if they ever fixed the “crease” that the CAIR panels created. I remember running my hands down the panels and being able to feel a crease about half way down. I always wondered how that would feel to the horse.
When I worked with them, Bates was great at replacing CAIR panels and saddle defects in both Bates and Wintec. Unfortunately that does happen occasionally with the panels, but it’s the exception not the norm! The newer saddles are a little better designed, so if you’re in the position to buy new I suggest that route. Otherwise it really shouldn’t be an issue with creasing, but I can’t speak for the horses! My experience is that there is much less creasing in the dressage saddles with CAIR than with jumping or AP.
I feel your pain with the wide horse, luckily the TB part of him comes out in his back so while he’s wide, he’s not mondo! Good luck, and let me know if you want suggestions! FYI, horseloverz has really excellent saddle try and return policies.
I would have to buy new, I haven’t found a single Bates Wide in an 18 inch seat used.
Wide horses certainly have their benefits and fall backs! I like feeling like I have a solid horse under me, but on the other hand I don’t ride bareback nearly as much as I use to!
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I bought new wool flocked Bates 6 months ago but wanted to get another one for a friend and couldn’t find one. E-mailed Bates and they said the USA (weatherbeater?) dealing was not importing their flocked saddles but they still make flocked saddles. I tried to order one from Aussie tack shop but deal fell through.
Oh they also said they will be exporting more saddles to US this summer.
I have a wool flocked Wintec for sale… 
From what the tack shop I am dealing with said, it sounded like the wool flocked ones can still be special ordered. Maybe contact them, Stafford Saddlery, if you are still looking. I didn’t ask what the wait time would be or anything like that. They offer a free trial period, so I figured I would give CAIR another try.
They also now offer a “heritage leather,” which is suppose to be super soft and takes oil better than their other leather.
