Baucher method

[ToN_Farm]

[QUOTE=mickeydoodle;5063535]
Amazed this thread is still going. Interesting to watch the videos. No date on them by the way.

1. “canter” caption says “note jaw flexions before depart” yes, so noted, also noted is that they are completely ineffective, the horse flings his head above the bit in the departs no matter how much he see saws the bit. Then the canter itself, barely a “tranter” lots of trot steps behind, no impulsion, back down, flinging the haunches out in turns (means no bend for the newbies)

2. “piaffe”- no, it is a jig. The horse is STEPPING BACKWARDS!!! THIS IS THE CARDINAL SIN IN PIAFFE, WHATEVER ELSE YOU DO THE HORSE MUST NOT STEP BACK!!!

3. “trot” work- stiff, often above the bit, a shuffle, not a real trot, haunches always swing in/out (stiff) the half pass is way haunches leading

4. “warm up on sensitive horse” lots of jiggy walk, back down, not a way to relax a hot horse to my way of thinking, then goes into a very poor shuffly trot

yep, the videos are very illustrative[/QUOTE] I think it’s even worse than what you wrote. I can’t judge Eagles by those videos because I think anyone would look bad on that horse. I guess that is the way they want the horse to go in that school. Does anyone know? He gets a little bit of what I assume he wants here and there, but no consistency. Really, he would be hard pressed to get through Training Level Test-1 with that horse. Anyone would.

I can’t imagine how awful that canter must feel. The horse is almost walking in front. It is probably quite easy to have a good seat and posture riding those little horses with no movement. Also, I think a lot of these men are too large for these tiny horses. No wonder the horses can sit. Put on a large man and 10" shanks.

[alicen]

[QUOTE=ToN Farm;5063578]
Really, he would be hard pressed to get through Training Level Test-1 with that horse. Anyone would.[/QUOTE]

Eagles did say in his first post that "This is not competitve dressage but somthing different.
Please just dont think it will conform to what you may have been taught or be doing because as I said it is a different road in many ways. "

[NOMIOMI1]

I disagree (about the horse). Long before the videos were posted I said that one of my horses was trained like this with a “little hopping canter”.

And of course I knew exactly what it would look like because I rode a horse trained like this to the point of being VERY uncomfortable.

Funny thing though, my own horse actually had a wealth of suspension (underneath that aweful pace), and after LOTS of fixing he was amazingly balanced and a recieved 7-8’s in movement.

This horse is stifled, and held back. I really do equate this type of training to a high headed version of western pleasure.

[NOMIOMI1]

[QUOTE=alicen;5063606]
Eagles did say in his first post that "This is not competitve dressage but somthing different.
Please just dont think it will conform to what you may have been taught or be doing because as I said it is a different road in many ways. "[/QUOTE]

Different roads to where?

Competative dressage shouldnt look any different than any other dressage IMO.

If you want the horse to look more relaxed? Fine. Without the venue they should be relaxed and perform the movemens EVEN better.

[ginger708]

At least now people can see if it is their cup o’ tea or not. Really if you’re not showing and it’s your school and you get to make up the rules and wear all those funny costumes, why should you care if the horse and riding is consistent or how the horse moves in its gaits.He can just make it up as he goes along. He started of the thread taht he uses Baucher and other old techniques and that what he does is something different. He basically does what ever he wants and calls it dressage and totally pied piped some of the people here completely off the reservation.

And after going to the web site I totally nailed it in an earlier post. He breeds his own gated horses that you can buy, as well as a saddle, and a bit so you can ride just like him. The other tack he sells is off the shelf stuff that is over priced. I wonder if he will sell fake mustaches and goatees.

[NOMIOMI1]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5063645]

And after going to the web site I totally nailed it in an earlier post. He breeds his own gated horses that you can buy, as well as a saddle, and a bit so you can ride just like him. The other tack he sells is off the shelf stuff that is over priced. I wonder if he will sell fake mustaches and goatees.[/QUOTE]

We are indeed a suspicious lot… For good reason :winkgrin:

[indyblue]

I just can’t get past the Master stuff.It does not sit well with me.Its like the person you meet at a friends BBQ who introduces themself as Dr John Smith only to find out later they did a night course on acupunture. Mind you we are pretty casual about titles in NZ and you would get laughed out of town if you decided to award yourself the title of Master. Anyway I watched your video’s and although I find it difficult to watch the way the horse is going I do applaud your soft contact and you look like a very soft rider. I think you would be a very interesting person to meet and watch ride.

[lstevenson]

The videos remind me of the non-SRS version of the “white Lippazaner Stallion” traveling tour that goes around the country. There is not much real dressage there either, merely a few tricks being taught. But people that don’t know anything about it say “Oh look at the pretty horsey!”

[ginger708]

[QUOTE=lstevenson;5063873]
The videos remind me of the non-SRS version of the “white Lippazaner Stallion” traveling tour that goes around the country. There is not much real dressage there either, merely a few tricks being taught. But people that don’t know anything about it say “Oh look at the pretty horsey!”[/QUOTE]

I have afunny story about that show. My husband got tickets for us right on the arena floor. I thing I annoyed a couple of the riders when the saw me exlaining proper hand position they gave me dirty looks.

[ThreeFigs]

Yes, indeed. Very illustrative videos. That canter is, without a doubt, one of the worst I’ve ever seen.

All I could think was this horse would be well served with a good cross-country gallop to re-establish FORWARD feeling.

Couldn’t bring myself to watch much more, but I’m interested to see a backwards piaffe. Perhaps in small doses I can stand it. So, did Master Sanders train the Pencilem horse, or was that a schoolie at the school in Portugal? That might explain a lot.

[Donella]

Just ride folks

Amen!

[ThreeFigs]

I do!

[ginger708]

[QUOTE=Donella;5064492]
Just ride folks

Amen![/QUOTE]

I do at least 5 to 6 days a week

[alicen]

[QUOTE=mbm;5046975]
Blue Domino: i dont know much about french/baucher - but i never got the impression that they wanted to extinguish the forward of the horse!

the very very very basic flexions that i have done do the exact opposite of what you are saying they do. the flexions i have done create a horse that is soft in jaw/poll/neck/back since they are all connected. i dont have to ride the horse into a state of softness in the poll - they are before i eve get on.

also my very very very basic attemtps at balance before movement have worked wonders for certain horses.

so i cna say from my basic experimentation that i dont agree iwth your conclusions.

one caveat - i have never read baucher or any other french author. i have watched videos and real life people and i have just experimented with my own horses to see what does what.

eta: my take on flexions is that is an education for the horse to the meaning of the bit. it makes sense that the horse should understand what we want before we get on. and the horse get it right away! oh this feel means chew, this feel means come down in to the bit, etc etc[/QUOTE]

You’ve never done flexions?

[dlatshaw]

Equine Biomechanics / Baucher Method

[QUOTE=eagles;5042219]
Hello I train horses in the Way of Baucher and also use some of the old Baroque methods .
This is not competitve dressage but somthing different. I find many people do not understand the way a Horse is trained in this manner and so if anyone would like to talk about it in a friendly way I would be glad to.
Please just dont think it will conform to what you may have been taught or be doing because as I said it is a different road in many ways. I am 59 years old riding since a child, taught the Calvary way by my father which was based on the French school . Was a long time student and friend of the late Baucherist Master, Jean Claude Racinet , trained for elleven years with Mestre Luis Valenca in Portugal, a cousin of Nuno O. A great Master and a man who lectures on Baucher . I have been teaching and using the Baucher way for over 20 years . Just as a small background . [edit]

Thank you[/QUOTE]

Hello! I’ve been riding for a number of years and have begun researching some of the “Old Masters”. I would very much enjoy speaking with you in that regard!

[alibi_18]

@Dlatshaw: this thread is 4 yrs old. You might have more success reaching Eagle by sending him an email.
I checked Eagle’s info and the last time he wrote here was in 2010…

[alicen]

Wow! Blast from the past thread! Off topic, but I must ask: has anyone noticed since the introduction of the “appreciate post” option that discussion and length of posts have diminished?

[Pipkin]

Is ‘through’ a modern term? What about ‘round’?

Perhaps at the time of Baucher, a submissive, responsive horse that did not take excessive physical effort to manoeuvre was more valuable than a round horse. I’m not saying these attributes are exclusive, merely that perhaps emphasis was placed on different things.

From what I have seen of historical representations of dressage/military training, even as early as Xenophon - to my amateur eye the horses look hollow. But if at the time, roundness and lift through the back weren’t the goals, can we judge their aptitude as trainers on that modern criterion?

Is it heightened biomechanical understanding that leads us to desire a lifted back? We believe that this is the best and healthiest way for a horse to carry a rider, but is there concrete scientific evidence?

[alicen]

I wish, I wish I could find the video (on the horse channel or some such -years ago) in which Hilda Gurney mounts a real cowboy on a big moving dressage horse and the guy lurches about in the saddle with the first big, springy trot steps. When he dismounts, Hilda asks, " Are you going to call dressage riders woosies anymore?" “No, Maam” is the reply. Clearly, if you’re going to be on the range or fighting battles for hours on end, impulsion, which has to be regulated by roundness, would not be the movement of choice. The historical dressage horse is about as similar to todays competitive athlete as a Model T is to a Lamborghini.

[kande04]

[QUOTE=Pipkin;7821633]
Is ‘through’ a modern term? What about ‘round’?

Perhaps at the time of Baucher, a submissive, responsive horse that did not take excessive physical effort to manoeuvre was more valuable than a round horse. I’m not saying these attributes are exclusive, merely that perhaps emphasis was placed on different things.[/QUOTE]

I think we’d first need to define “round”. IOW, what are the limits when we’re talking about “roundness”. Is an RK horse round, and can he collect when he’s round in that way? Is a Baucherized horse round, and can he collect when he’s round in that way? If the answer is no to either, then what would need to change before the horse was able to collect?

From what I have seen of historical representations of dressage/military training, even as early as Xenophon - to my amateur eye the horses look hollow. But if at the time, roundness and lift through the back weren’t the goals, can we judge their aptitude as trainers on that modern criterion?

I think we’d need a particular pic or video to discuss, as it may be a fine line between too round or not round enough. The stated purposes of dressage is to produce a horse who is pleasant to ride, but not everyone agrees on what attributes make a horse most pleasant to ride, which means that the success of the training is open to interpretation–which is also likely the reason that there are different paths to “success”.

Is it heightened biomechanical understanding that leads us to desire a lifted back? We believe that this is the best and healthiest way for a horse to carry a rider, but is there concrete scientific evidence?

I doubt it, because there are so many factors that contribute to unsoundesses that it’s very hard to isolate just one, and especially over the length of time it often takes for a horse to become unsound. I think it would be different if the diagnostics that would be necessary to detect the beginnings of unsoundness were inexpensive and available, but they aren’t, which means that the information we would need to be able to know is currently unavailable to us.

I think the vets who perform the diagnostics often have a better idea of what’s going on with unsoundnesses in horses, but they don’t often know the relevant issues that led up to the unsoundnesses, so they don’t have the full picture either. And the owners, who often know a lot more, don’t very often share it fully and accurately.