Baucher method

[ginger708]

[QUOTE=mbm;5060652]
i totally agree with your first comment - which is why if anyone is interested in anyone’s riding they should go watch them ride enough times to be able to make an informed opinion. sometimes you can do that right away - sometimes i takes a lot longer and i know the longer you are able to access a person the more reliable the opinion will be.

as for your second… i believe that he addressed that by noting that the websites were created by clients - not him. also i believe he said that he holds various “titles” for disciplines other than riding. <shrug> so i dont think he initially avoided the question. and finally, while i dont know much about “academic riding” i do know that there are several folks training that are called “masters” since i havent seen any of them ride i cant comment on that.

but it becomes pretty obvious pretty quickly that certain questions are asked - not because the asker wants an answer - but because they want to bait so they can have more to attack.

in the end, who can blame the guy for not wanting to address personal questions?[/QUOTE]

So let me get this straight. People ask him about his web site and a student made it so he had no control of the content of his site.

People tell him that his horse is not correct so he says that the horse is 26 the horse is recovering from west Nile.

He is challenged to do a ride for charity he will not do it because he is so busy taking care of his two time cancer surviving wife.

Someone asks where he got his information on horse anatomy and he says that he is a expert acupuchurest.

And I don’t even know when the kung fu came up but it did and I am still wondering what that has to do with dressage.

And now mbm, I am calling you out because you are in the anti-rollkur board spouting how we need to get back to less aggressive forms of dressage. However you are here blindly following and arguing for a method of training that is the foundation of Rollkur.At some point you need to stop rattling and get your facts straight. Or at least figure what side of an argument you are going to be on.

[Sabine]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5060765]

And now mbm, I am calling you out because you are in the anti-rollkur board spouting how we need to get back to less aggressive forms of dressage. However you are here blindly following and arguing for a method of training that is the foundation of Rollkur.At some point you need to stop rattling and get your facts straight. Or at least figure what side of an argument you are going to be on.[/QUOTE]

Ginger- you are New- it hurts to be new…LOL!..but you figured something out…good for you!

[Bats79]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5060765]

And now mbm, I am calling you out because you are in the anti-rollkur board spouting how we need to get back to less aggressive forms of dressage. However you are here blindly following and arguing for a method of training that is the foundation of Rollkur.At some point you need to stop rattling and get your facts straight. Or at least figure what side of an argument you are going to be on.[/QUOTE]

Rollkur borrowed from Baucher’s first method which (as people have repeatedly said) Baucher himself agreed was not necessarily a GOOD method of training a horse.

Also (as people have repeatedly said) Baucher practiced hundreds of years ago when people’s understanding of the physiology and physchology of horses was much more limited. Baucher was trying to find a way that was more systematic and less demanding on the horse.

Rollkur is practiced TODAY and is hardly “less demanding” or cruel when taken with our current knowledge.

Acknowledging that Baucher broke new ground and still has words that are relevant today is not oxymoronic when matched with a dislike of rollkur. Many of us agree with mbm.

[alicen]

Here’s an earthshaking idea: let’s actually read Baucher passages. Do not panic. The pages are short, the prose is not difficult, there are illustrations and even an element of suspense. All together, now: Here’s the Baucher Link http://books.google.com/books?id=iFU...ed=0CDMQ6AEwAQ

For starters, please read pgs. 79-83

Curses. The link won’t open. Please go to pg 21 of this thread post 414

[ThreeFigs]

Bats, Baucher did not ride “hundreds of years ago”. More like 150 years ago. Grisone rode “hundreds of years ago”.

I found an interesting footnote regarding Baucher on page 48 of Seunig’s “Horsemanship” (Copyright 1956). I will not quote it here, as I’m sure all you learned horsmen have a copy on your bookshelves.

From Seunig’s text, also on page 48, he states, “…Baucher, who displayed traits of genius, revolutionized part of the riding world by his apparently brilliant successes, even turning the heads of more sensible people like those usually found in ministries of war, but the reaction against his method, which either broke a horse’s heart or drove it to desperation, was a healthy and enduring one.”

To paraphrase the footnote, Baucher later focused on steadying the necks of the horses he formerly made artificially loose, used nothing more severe than a snaffle bit and blunt spurs after 1864. (His Second Method.)

Reading Seunig’s chapter on the history of horsemanship is hair-raising. Grisone’s solution for a horse that refused to go forward was to have a ground person hold a cat, tied to a pole, close to the horse’s hind legs, where the cat would bite and scratch the horse. I don’t know who to feel sorrier for – the horse or the cat.

He states that another horse, who knew some amazing tricks, was put on trial and burned as a witch!

Folks, we’ve come a long, long way! In another hundred years, things will have changed again, and who knows what opinions will dominate then?

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Sabine;5060881]
Ginger- you are New- it hurts to be new…LOL!..but you figured something out…good for you![/QUOTE]

well, so fa i have zero idea of how Eagles trains - there fore i withhold judgement until i can see FOR MYSELF.

on the other hand I have seen rollkur in real life etc etc etc so i can make a judgement about it.

seems pretty simple to me?

plus, i am no fan of what passes here as entertainment… it is just so immature and well… rude…

[mbm]

[QUOTE=alicen;5060966]
Here’s an earthshaking idea: let’s actually read Baucher passages. Do not panic. The pages are short, the prose is not difficult, there are illustrations and even an element of suspense. All together, now: Here’s the Baucher Link http://books.google.com/books?id=iFU...ed=0CDMQ6AEwAQ

For starters, please read pgs. 79-83

Curses. The link won’t open. Please go to pg 21 of this thread post 414[/QUOTE]

it is an interesting read for sure. however, my take on it is that the Baucherists don’t literally take everything in that book and use it on horses. much like we don’t take word for word what is in some of the older works… we take what still is valid …

for those that have never read the older books it can be quite interesting to say the least what is in them. but the fact that there are some less than horse friendly methods in them does not take away from them that they are the foundation of our sport.

[egontoast]

well, so fa i have zero idea of how Eagles trains - there fore i withhold judgement until i can see FOR MYSELF.

REally? Are you cantering backwards on this thread so to speak?.. or maybe based on the above I should say :

R U cntring <

[ideayoda]

RK really has two ‘origins’, the first appeared because some jump riders trussed their horses (with draw reins used for longitudinal flexion…vs lateral flexion) when their horses became high head because they were over-faced. Dressage riders (who were also jump riders) shook their heads in disgust. The ‘second coming’ was partly borrowed from baucherism because the newbie person who used it applied standing flexions to movement (which baucher did not do), and called it a new improved method. It is not a new method, it is a poor one. Such actions were decried by previous generations because of how it negatively impacted the gaits and violated the very nature of the horse. But now many eyes are adjusted to false flashing actions of the legs/excessive flexion by holding of the hand.

[ThreeFigs]

Master Sanders has put up videos of his riding on his website. Appears at first glance to be a healthy cross-section of riding and in-hand work.

Now folks can see for themselves whether or not he can walk the walk.

[NOMIOMI1]

It was no less than I expected (the videos).

Shuffle hop canter thats disunited, and trot work that was kinda pace-ish (new word?) lol

[mbm]

my guess is that even if Baucher never existed rollkur still would.

[angel]

I would say that he can definitely walk the walk. As with most of us, he has a few flaws in these videos. Probably the one I would change is the length of the reins. Except for the walk work, the reins are too short. This is noticeable in especially in the canter and the piaffe work. This is also something that you see pretty universally in the show ring.

The canter needs more umph. The reason it is not happening is that the reins are not long enough to allow the shoulders to rise enough. This is also happening in piaffe as the reins restrict the front of the horse rather than the hindquarters being ridden to the reins.

Things that would improve the horse’s motion at this point…let the reins out about two to three inches; take the rider’s shoulders back so that the rider’s head/neck do not fall forward; become more aware of how the stirrups should be weighted for the movements rather than pressing equally on both stirrups at the same time. The weighting of the stirrups in the piaffe needs to be more diagonized as in this video the alternation of the stirrup weighting needed for piaffe is not happening, or at least to the degree it should be happening. Thinking of piaffe as a reinback in position would help.

I did not see any of the flexion work in these videos, and attempting to do it with reins this short would not deliver the desired portrayal of the flexion work that is desired to be seen.

My comments on the ridden work is only a teaching aid, and is not meant to detract from eagle’s riding or discussion of flexions. Flexions are a means, not an end in riding, and these videos are more like showing the end results of training. In comparison to many riders, his riding is very good, but improvement in for what we ALL strive, myself included. Nothing is ever quite good enough as we search for perfection.

[angel]

I actually think you are correct MBM. My guess is that rollkur was an American export to Europe via the western world with its draw reins rather anything Baucher did.

[Sabine]

[QUOTE=mbm;5061349]
well, so fa i have zero idea of how Eagles trains - there fore i withhold judgement until i can see FOR MYSELF.

on the other hand I have seen rollkur in real life etc etc etc so i can make a judgement about it.

seems pretty simple to me?

plus, i am no fan of what passes here as entertainment… it is just so immature and well… rude…[/QUOTE]

well- not rude. I rode with ‘Eagles’ or better visited him 11 years ago- he was about to start into this endeavour. It is valid and he is very intellectual- brainy- smart- analyzing…everything you need to understand the mechanics of a training system. He was totally committed and apparently is now.
The fact that you are jumping on his band wagon just is surprising because I would have expected you to be a ‘up and open fan’- and I guess you have not explained about your own maturation or I have not had the opportunity to find out about your own growth in realizing what is really good horse training and who are the contributors and who are ‘your’ masters…so you appeared to me to have ‘switched camps’…what scandal!!

[mbm]

sabine, i found what he (and some others) were posting to be fascinating… and i love to learn - add to that a horse that didnt “get” balance thru movement and i guess i started looking elsewhere.

i abhor rollkur, and the more i learn the more that opinion gells.

as for Baucher - i dont know enough about to form an opinion, just like i dont know enough about Eagles to form an opinion beyond thinking he sounds like he knows what he is talking about (unlike many others here) …

I just think the guy should not be reamed just for riding a different school… and a lot of the posters that are so vocal have never posted videos of them riding nor do i get the feeling they are high level trainers… <shrug>

I have been reading a book on US Military riding and there are flexions in that book… a very interesting little read.

[connieg10]

Eagles - I love the new videos on your site. It very much details the results you can achieve.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=angel;5062004]
My guess is that rollkur was an American export to Europe via the western world with its draw reins rather anything Baucher did.[/QUOTE]

That comment just made me spit my coffee all over my laptop. :lol:

[mickeydoodle]

Amazed this thread is still going. Interesting to watch the videos. No date on them by the way.

1. “canter” caption says “note jaw flexions before depart” yes, so noted, also noted is that they are completely ineffective, the horse flings his head above the bit in the departs no matter how much he see saws the bit. Then the canter itself, barely a “tranter” lots of trot steps behind, no impulsion, back down, flinging the haunches out in turns (means no bend for the newbies)

2. “piaffe”- no, it is a jig. The horse is STEPPING BACKWARDS!!! THIS IS THE CARDINAL SIN IN PIAFFE, WHATEVER ELSE YOU DO THE HORSE MUST NOT STEP BACK!!!

3. “trot” work- stiff, often above the bit, a shuffle, not a real trot, haunches always swing in/out (stiff) the half pass is way haunches leading

4. “warm up on sensitive horse” lots of jiggy walk, back down, not a way to relax a hot horse to my way of thinking, then goes into a very poor shuffly trot

yep, the videos are very illustrative

[mickeydoodle]

@Go Fish;5063373

That comment just made me spit my coffee all over my laptop. :lol:

agree, holding my sides it made me laugh so much