Been through a lot with my horse, but wondering if it’s time to part ways. WWYD?

[adelaide36]

I’m so sorry you’re going through this - I went through something really similar last year, except you were much smarter about the initial PPE/purchase process. To make a very long story short, I followed the advice of my vet, two trainers, and my gut: I euthanized. It was gut-wrenching and the single most difficult choice I’ve ever made after 30+ years in horses but it was without question, the right one. I did all the things people are suggesting: Vitamin E. Surrender to rescue (had a VERY tearful, very incredible conversation with a rescue owner who treated me with so much kindness and empathy I think she was an angel: she also suggested euthanizing). Broodmare (nobody felt she would even be able to handle insemination let alone live cover and some even suggested she’d get more violent if she had a foal). Cowboy. Natural horsemanship. Parelli. etc.

It finally took a good friend and well-respected horsewoman to put it this way: What if she’s with you so she doesn’t hurt anymore. Not necessarily physically, but mentally. What if she came to you so you could be the only brave one, the least arrogant one, the one who recognized that even with all the love and attention (and money, and supplements, and work…) there would always be a piece missing and that’s not fair. It’s not fair to the horse. Give her a calm, quiet, loving end.

So I did. I spent the night before feeding her as many treats as she would eat. Telling her that nobody would ever hurt her ever again (because someone clearly did) and that I was sorry. I hated every second of it, but it was without question, the right call.

The comment that owning a horse shouldn’t be like being in an abusive relationship is spot on. We spend too much money on this sport to have it be torture. The barn was my happy place for decades and then all of a sudden I was sobbing every time I went out because I wasn’t sure if I was going to get hurt or if something would set her off or if I would even be able to catch her.

I had a boarder confront me about the situation after the fact and what finally made me feel confident in my decision was before I could even open my mouth, the barn owner stepped in and said, with full force, “It takes a brave horsewoman to recognize that sometimes the most beautiful thing we can do for our horse is to let them leave a world they weren’t built for nor could they conform to. Adelaide36 is one of the strongest, smartest horsewomen in this barn and I suggest if you have a differing opinion you find another facility.”

The whole situation sucked. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. It almost got me out of horses for good after a 30+ year history with them. What makes it even more ironic is this horse was what I purchased after I lost my previous one to EDM (confirmed on necropsy).

But I know the horse is safe, she had a dignified, loving end to her life and she will never hurt anyone else nor will she ever be hurt.

[colorfan]

@dmveventer

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/have-empathy-in-the-face-of-the-hardest-choice/?fbclid=IwAR0UtqEwrw2KkYpSvMVOXpyRt33QJVDHU00vNk3kwuKfq6oEOxx8xuu7894

But you aren’t just saying the horse got bad with others, the horse was bad with you, after having established a relationship with her, you stated you were scared of her. How much worse does it need to be?

[dogsbody1]

@adelaide36

I’m so sorry you’re going through this - I went through something really similar last year, except you were much smarter about the initial PPE/purchase process. To make a very long story short, I followed the advice of my vet, two trainers, and my gut: I euthanized. It was gut-wrenching and the single most difficult choice I’ve ever made after 30+ years in horses but it was without question, the right one. I did all the things people are suggesting: Vitamin E. Surrender to rescue (had a VERY tearful, very incredible conversation with a rescue owner who treated me with so much kindness and empathy I think she was an angel: she also suggested euthanizing). Broodmare (nobody felt she would even be able to handle insemination let alone live cover and some even suggested she’d get more violent if she had a foal). Cowboy. Natural horsemanship. Parelli. etc.

I’m sorry you went through this. But put yourself in my shoes. You had a vet and two trainers telling you it was time to euthanize. I have dozens of internet strangers. It sounds like it was a hard enough decision for you even with 3 people with firsthand experience of the situation backing you up. Would you have really gone through with it if no one who had examined your horse and observed her over time was suggesting it?

[Heinz_57]

Has anyone suggested getting a vet’s opinion on behavioral euthanasia?
Or going back to any of the trainers (or a different style of one) for their input on whether the horse is “bad enough” that euthanasia is the best option? Someone that has and can actually SEE the horse in real life, evaluate it?

Has anyone asked about changes to diet, turnout, tack between these moves? Even if everything stayed exactly the same, there are health conditions (PSSM2, for example) that can be ‘flared’ by stress like moving and can present with oddball behavioral symptoms, not anything that would be evident on a PPE/lameness exam.

Personally, I don’t feel that I have a good enough understanding of what is happening with the horse to tell OP with absolute certainty that she should euthanize.

[adelaide36]

I should note: Neither trainer nor the vet were people I was paying. They were close connections and friends. Not people who were making money on my suffering. None of the trainers nor vets who were being paid to handle or manage my horse suggested it.

Just something to think about. The professionals around us as amateurs make money off of us. I’m not saying it’s the end all-be-all of decision-making. I’m just saying consider the source.

[dogsbody1]

@endlessclimb

You’re calling the entire board of horse people reaching the same conclusion, a very painful conclusion, a pile on?

I may be relatively new to horses, but I’m not new to the internet. Any thread can become a pile on. The fact that the subject is horses and the commenters horse people is all the more reason to expect a pile on.

[IndysMom]

It’s apparent that the OP only wanted validation of her own conclusion. No doubt, she will continue to own this horse. I suggest we wish her well and be done.

[jvanrens]

@dogsbody1

@endlessclimb

You’re calling the entire board of horse people reaching the same conclusion, a very painful conclusion, a pile on?

I may be relatively new to horses, but I’m not new to the internet. Any thread can become a pile on. The fact that the subject is horses and the commenters horse people is all the more reason to expect a pile on.

This is not a pile on. It’s a very caring community sharing their gut feeling based on the information you have shared with us. Everyone has been quite thoughtful in their responses, even if they aren’t what you want to hear.

[Angela_Freda]

@dogsbody1

Also, she was bred in North America so doesn’t have the same risk for EPM as a European import.

This is a new idea to me, anyone want to enlighten me?

[Angela_Freda]

@dogsbody1

I may be relatively new to horses, but I’m not new to the internet. Any thread can become a pile on. The fact that the subject is horses and the commenters horse people is all the more reason to expect a pile on.

Wow, that frankly very insulting to the group.

The people commenting have a vast array of experiences and took the time to read your comments and respond.

None of us read these and comment with advice as part of a game. Flippantly. Without care.

We do it because we love horses, we value each other’s experience and knowledge, and value each other as horsemen enough to be brutally honest when it’s warranted.

[SuzieQNutter]

We posted because we care.

We care for the horse that is obviously in pain and we care that you do not get hurt.

Feed a horse at the same time every day and the horse will let you know when you are a second late.

Feed them at different times and they lose their watch.

[Zevida]

I think it’s good you’ve decided against the “rescue.” Some rescues are just horse flippers masquerading as charities. Considering you’ve been through several pros who have given up yet another pro is probably not going to help.

Dangerous horses on the ground can be just as dangerous as dangerous horses under saddle. People have been killed and seriously injured due to ground accidents.

I think your options are either you move her to a place where you are the only one who handles her, or you euthanize her. In the former case you need really clear guidance that she should be euthanized if something happens to you.

I am not surprised none of your paid professional advice suggests euthanasia. In my experience vets will often just keep giving more treatment advice or ideas. They are often rarely behavioral specialists. Same for trainers. Telling someone to euthanize a horse for behavioral reasons is something a super close friend does tactfully and carefully. Or internet strangers do. It’s not something a casual acquaintance would suggest.

[firecracker]

@Heinz_57

Has anyone suggested getting a vet’s opinion on behavioral euthanasia?
Or going back to any of the trainers (or a different style of one) for their input on whether the horse is “bad enough” that euthanasia is the best option? Someone that has and can actually SEE the horse in real life, evaluate it?

Has anyone asked about changes to diet, turnout, tack between these moves? Even if everything stayed exactly the same, there are health conditions (PSSM2, for example) that can be ‘flared’ by stress like moving and can present with oddball behavioral symptoms, not anything that would be evident on a PPE/lameness exam.

Personally, I don’t feel that I have a good enough understanding of what is happening with the horse to tell OP with absolute certainty that she should euthanize.

Seconding all of this.

I am fully supportive of euthanasia for a truly dangerous horse, but as I’ve followed this thread, I’ve wondered if we know enough about the situation.

Perhaps the trainers that have worked with this horse are just not all that great. There are many people out there that call themselves “trainers” that may lack skills in some areas, especially when it comes to problem horses. Sometimes the wrong approach can make problems worse. Perhaps the story we are getting is a bit distorted since it is coming from a person that is newer to horses, and that is heavily invested in this horse emotionally (this is NOT meant to be a dig at you @dogsbody1, you clearly have gone above and beyond for this mare and you love her very much, and I’m sure you’re trying your best).

I do find it a little odd that euthanasia has not once been brought up in the real world to the OP, despite the fact that she’s dealing with multiple people across various aspects of the horse world (trainers, barn owners, vets, farriers, etc). Of course euthanasia is not something most people talk about openly, but considering all the experienced horse people that have touched this horse, if the mare is truly as dangerous as people are making her out to be, I would think something might’ve been said by someone at some point? Or alluded to, at least? Perhaps I’m off base here, I don’t know.

We don’t know what we don’t know, we’re only going off of what has been presented here, which is a teeny tiny snapshot of the actual big picture, which may or may not be a whole lot more complex.

Has anyone asked anything about the pros? At what level are they riding/showing? What kind of horses and clientele are they working with? How long have they been in the industry? It’s one thing if a well-respected professional trainer that has been in the industry a long time and is known for having a lot of success with difficult horses refuses to work with this horse. It’s quite another if a younger self-labeled trainer that dabbles in a few things here and there but doesn’t have much experience yet couldn’t figure this mare out and ended up backsliding and making things worse. We just don’t know.

I totally and completely do think that euthanasia is the right call for a horse that is truly dangerous, but I don’t think we have enough information here to make that call given the fact that there could be so many other factors at play (OP could unintentionally be misrepresenting things, the pros dealing with this horse could just plain suck, more diagnostics could probably be done if the OP is willing to go further down that rabbit hole, etc).

OP, here’s what I would do. Lean on the professionals you trust. Talk to your vet. You can even use this thread as part of the conversation, “I posted on an online forum looking for advice and ideas on what to do with my mare, and many people suggested euthanasia. Is this something that you feel should be on the table with this horse?” I assume you have a good relationship with your vet since it sounds like you have tried a lot of different things to help your mare feel better. Maybe have your horse evaluated by another professional, preferably one that has a lot of experience dealing with quirky horses (to find such a trainer, I’d recommend networking as much as you can - talk to vets, farriers, other horse owners, facebook groups, do your online research, etc etc).

Above all else, please please please be careful. Please don’t get yourself hurt or killed. So many people here are suggesting euthanasia because we have firsthand experienced how dangerous horses can be. We also care about horses (even the ones we only “meet” through the internet), and we don’t want her to ultimately end up in a bad situation. There are much worse things than a kind and quiet end, in a safe space with caring people and a full belly.

There is a lot of good advice in this thread, and all of it comes from a good place.

OP, I wish you and your horse the best of luck.

[Heinz_57]

@Zevida

In my experience vets will often just keep giving more treatment advice or ideas. They are often rarely behavioral specialists. Same for trainers. Telling someone to euthanize a horse for behavioral reasons is something a super close friend does tactfully and carefully.

This can be true, but the bottom line is - even if OP takes the internet strangers’ advice and wants to euthanize the horse, she is still going to need to get the vet out to assess and agree.

[ThreeWishes]

OP I got your videos. And to my eye given the many different situations and varying conditions it does seem very much evasive and in response to mental “pressure”. I personally would not ride a horse that rears straight up. In many parts of the video she looks like a horse who is very willing and responsive to you. Of course it could be physical but you do seem to have gone down many rabbit holes to ferret that out. I would NEVER send this horse away from your care and I would have a back up plan for if something happened to you in place.

She seems like a poster child for a SKILLED Warwick Schiller (spelled wrong probably) level/type trainer.

[Simkie]

Just out of curiosity, what color is this horse?

I ask because my grey mare became very unpredictable when her melanoma grew.

[ThreeWishes]

Bay

[Simkie]

Thank you!

@dogsbody1 have you had her worked up, thoroughly, at a referral clinic? The type of place where you haul her in, and multiple vets look at her?

Did she have a neuro exam at her PPE? Has she had one since?

[barnesthenoble]

OP, I would be interested in seeing the video if you are willing to send it. This sounds like a similar situation to a horse I’ve had but I don’t want to expound on it further if I’m off base.

[dogsbody1]

Sure thing, I’m happy to share