Hi all,
I’m currently having quite a bit of trouble with one of my horses. A very long story short is that his ride-ability has been going downhill since I purchased him (I’m not convinced that it was ever all the great, to be honest. I think there was some, let’s say “miscommunication”, on the part of the seller). We were doing pretty well together at first–he just needed A LOT of schooling. He’d been fixed up with gadgets, and I think taking him away and making him use himself sort of sent him off the deep end. To top it off, he was laid up for several weeks, and has been a disaster being brought back–he will go from soft and quiet to a nightmare over something like a canter transition. The behavior issues are sporadic–we have two or three good days, and then he’ll lose his fuzzy little mind over…well, nothing. His main issue is that he will get upset by something, and will start pulling like a freight train and buries his head between his knees, and just kind of goes, which is how we ended up running into the fence yesterday–it’s not even malicious so much as it’s like his brain goes out the window. I’m guessing this was the reason for all the gadgets in the first place. I’ve given him the benefit of the doubt–I’ve had several saddle fitters check fit, vet checks from a really good clinic, (we even did a bone scan to rule out pain, though there was nothing the vets could find on xrays or in flexions/soundess exam–they thought I was crazy, and they were right, nothing was found). It appears as if the problem is between his ears. I have had good help along the way, but I’ve determined that he is beyond my abilities, even in a solid training program. As a last ditch effort he’s finally going to “Summer Camp” with a trainer I trust, and whom I have seen work horses through behavior far worse than he’s displaying, and produce a reasonably reliable horse in the end. My hope is that he can be fixed as well, and I can end up with a happy horse. I’m not looking for a miracle or a perfect horse–I’m looking to walk, trot and canter this horse without fearing for the safety of either one of us. I know that posting about this kind of thing is akin to opening an invitation to be judged, but I’m not looking for training tips or advice–what I’m hoping for is success stories to keep me going. I’m beyond frustrated with this horse–I’ve never had a horse that I appear to make worse, not better, and I’ve ridden some difficult horses for people. It’s odd to be on the other side of the fence for a change, because the thought of getting on him is not my favorite, at this point. Anybody out there who has had difficult horses that are now functional animals I would LOVE to hear from. I need positive stories (and it was nice to vent a little bit) and hope that somebody out there has them!
I hate to say it but that horse is probably a lost cause. Horses that will bolt through anything, including other horses, are unsafe as they have lost their self-preservation and don’t care if they harm themselves in the process of harming you. Please do not ride this horse, and do not spend money on “summer camp”, put it into another horse. Move on, cut your losses. You cannot train a horse to have self-preservation.
I’ve met one that ran through a fence, hit the fence and fell down, then got up and continued running through the fence before gallivanting around the farm for another 30 minutes. He also injured the head trainer and kept her grounded for over a month; ripped away from me on the lunge line and threw himself on the ground, busted his side reins, got up and kept running; and when the owner came to the farm she had a broken collar bone and left (after the fence incident) on crutches.
I can’t stress how dangerous riding a horse like that is. They aren’t trustworthy especially when you cannot “feel” what they are planning on doing and they have no “limit” because they will run through the fence or other horses or the tree.
You can’t fix that.
I’ve heard of some people sending them to cowboys but I haven’t heard of them coming back. Good luck, but be realistic, please.
Colorfuladdiction–I appreciate the concern, and the advice, because it’s what I would normally tell someone. However, a new horse isn’t really in the budget right now. It will be quite some time before I save up enough to purchase another horse, which is why I’m hoping he can be salvaged, even if it’s just enough to toodle around on. (Yes–I’m aware hospital bills are expensive, and financially and otherwise, that is a concern. I have zero desire to end up broken.) You may well be correct, but I’ve been very honest with the trainer he’s going to, and she is willing to evaluate him for me, and probably take him on for a while. Therefore, I’d like to give it one last shot. Quite frankly, the rest of my options for him really are not good. I was just hoping for a turn around story, or an “aha” moment that someone else had with a horse having issues. I know it’s unlikely, but for the moment it’s all I have.
I’m glad you are quite realistic. We found some reliability with a mullen pelham. I mean full pelham with two reins and a straight metal bar with a loose curb chain to really haul on his face when he goes off. The only thing the horse would respond to was pain. That was the smallest amount of bit we could keep him in safely. Remember when bitting the horse, it is for the safety of both of you, so bit up heavily but have a “soft” option. A double bridle is not out of the question. Our psycho when okay in it, but the horse was supposed to be an eventer for a younger rider so not suitable to be ridden in a double or pelham full time. Be reasonable, if you get to the point where the horse needs a double twisted wire gag, you might just consider finding another horse to ride as there is a point at which it may get unfair to both of you.
But consider bitting up to control the bolt as oppose to trying to stop it, as stopping it may be futile (the unpredictable nature of his little “snaps” and the lack of self preservation make it basically impossible to train out), but when he starts to bolt, you can stand up and pulley rein on the pelham rein and plant him on his butt to keep both of you safe.
You will never be relaxed riding, but he may be a usable tool while saving up for something more reliable.
I feel you’re asking more of this horse than he can give at this time. He’s been through a lot with all those gadgets holding him in and holding him back.
He needs to learn how to relax and that could mean just weeks and months of just hacking out at a walk with no expectations. He has to heal in his mind and learn to trust his rider–once that happens he will walk through fire for you. But he needs the time and space to heal. Without that you have what you have–a wreck…
Forget the harsh bits, forget “schooling” him–he needs to have the stress taken out of his life for the near future.
If you need a horse that can perform immediately then find this horse a good home and look for another. If you can give him the time though I think he will exceed your expectations…
Well, my horse’s issues sound different than your horse’s issues, but he’s kind of a “success story,” I guess. If you compare him to what he used to be like, anyway. But, honestly, he’s still incredibly difficult to ride, and no one but me ever rides him now.
I’m short on time, so I’ll give you the Cliff’s Notes version.
I got my horse when he was 3 1/2. He was the worst rearer I’ve ever ridden. He would stand straight up, frequently. Usually every ride as a four year old. He stood up if you were standing there on the buckle chatting with friends. He stood up at the mounting block. He stood up walking around. Sometimes he even managed to stand up from a trot.
With the help of a trainer, we got that mostly out of him under saddle. I still know that he would go up in the right circumstances, even now. He’s 10 now. He still rears when being led several times a week. He also rears in the paddock constantly in his free time. It’s just part of who he is.
He is also a very reactive horse, especially if he is fresh. A noise or something will set him off, and he will take off bucking and crow hopping. That’s much worse in winter, and is still a problem. I’ve gotten better at anticipating his bad days and doing things to set him up for success. Lunge instead of ride one day, etc.
I’ve had him over 7 years now, and I’ve basically figured out that most of his behavior problems stem from anxiety. He’s a nervous horse, and his nervousness manifests in explosive behavior. I’ve had pretty good success managing it by developing a strong relationship with him, on the ground and under saddle. Dressage has really helped us in this respect. MOST of the time, he gives me a half second to “be there” for him before an explosion now, and I can head it off most of the time (but not always). I have accepted that I will never get rid of his behavioral quirks completely. He had a big bucking episode under saddle on Monday, for example. And I’m sure he would have blown up today if I had elected to ride instead of lunge.
Long story short - if you do decide to keep a difficult horse like this, you have to accept that you won’t ever be able to really have a relaxing ride. I’m not saying you won’t have any fun rides. I truly and completely enjoy my horse most of the time, and we have some incredibly rewarding rides together. However, I have to be 100% ON whenever I ride or handle him. He’s not a horse for someone that wants to enjoy casual rides with friends. I can’t even chat with anyone when I’m cooling him out, really. I mean, I can, but I have to be very focused on what’s going on with him so that I can head off trouble.
Good luck with your horse.
I have a horse nowhere near as bad as this.
He’s very happy as a pasture potato and we’re looking into retirement board. I’m going to half lease something else. He’s happy, I’m happy, and neither of us is in any danger. Also I haven’t been hospitalized which is a positive.
Took me a long time to admit this is the best option though.
he has either a physical problem that may be fixable or a mental problem that is NOT. Either cut your losses now or spend $ on a thorough vetting(paying particular attention to the spinal column), this is not an issue that can be fixed with training.
The ones that shut down their self preservation mode are seriously dangerous and should not be ridden. 
However, some people mix that up with frustration and dire efforts to communicate about a problem (ulcers, pain, fear). So, I think you’re absolutely right to have a good trainer evaluate this horse. However, if trainer says the horse honestly loses his brain out the side door and along with it all self preservation, then you need to retire or euthanize the horse.
If that has to happen, there are ALWAYS horses to ride for cheap or free, you just need to look hard enough. My own story in that regard is having bought a lovely co$tly horse, I had to put him down a few months later. I was broke but started cruising the ads for leases, free horses, and cheap prospects that I could spin to work my way back to a good quality horse. I found the most wonderful horse ever. I would never have found her if I had not been looking for cheap or free.
In regards to horses with a true lack of self preservation, I have known 2 and one with a very nasty streak. I out and out refused to ride any of them after they showed their true colours. Some screws loose + athletic + twitchy and unpredictable, I will still ride those because they are not going to purposely harm you or themselves. However, as I get more brittle, I am choosier about the type of bomb I will ride. I don’t bouce so well any more. LoL
Just some thoughts that might help you, whatever you decide.
I got my mare as a badly broke 8 year old broodmare (9 years ago.) She was a mess and all over, and someone had not done the right thing in training her. Among other things, she would put her head up and run if pushed to hard, into a fence, too. It just took time and trying everything I could. I ended up figuring she was stressed and weak, and that was the way she handled it. It took a lot of time and conditioning/strengthening. I got her up to PSG mid 60’s. Now I ride both of her daughters. so she has two sponsors, both of whom adore her. She teaches them a lot in dressage, and is a kick ass trail horse.
Her 5 year old daughter I started. She’s been super bold and relaxed, until about six months ago. She just feels stiff and inattentive. She also went through a phase where she wanted to rear, spin, and bolt all of the time. (Luckily she’s super slow, so she never got anywhere, but she’s huge and strong.) I’ve never had this in a horse before (and her older sister never did this.) I figure it’s the age, the distraction, whatever. Five is my least favorite horse age to ride. I’m trying all kind of variations of riding, not riding, trail riding, ponying, lunging, etc., and I’m also trying magnesium to see if it makes any difference. I just started, so not sure yet.
A long time ago I also got a horse for a client that was seriously jaw dropping world class fabulous, and they lied about her being crazy. She would bolt uncontrollably from any random thing. If you tried to stop her, she’d really freak out and buck really high while bolting. You could have a tornado blowing around you and she would do nothing. It was like system overload. But, if it was quiet and one little thing happened, she would bolt. Eventually I figured out she was a little lazy, but you can’t just let her bold uncontrollably anywhere, so I taught her to rear. Probably the last thing you’d want to teach a horse, but at least she was on one spot, and she could rear and rear and not freak out. I could hang on until she got tired of doing that, and then go back to work. I am NOT suggesting you do this, just giving a story.
Maybe something in there will give you some insight. I’m with sascha on how I view things.
[QUOTE=Cherry;8426390]
I feel you’re asking more of this horse than he can give at this time. He’s been through a lot with all those gadgets holding him in and holding him back.
He needs to learn how to relax and that could mean just weeks and months of just hacking out at a walk with no expectations. He has to heal in his mind and learn to trust his rider–once that happens he will walk through fire for you. But he needs the time and space to heal. Without that you have what you have–a wreck…
Forget the harsh bits, forget “schooling” him–he needs to have the stress taken out of his life for the near future.
If you need a horse that can perform immediately then find this horse a good home and look for another. If you can give him the time though I think he will exceed your expectations…[/QUOTE]
Totally agree^^^
I have a horse that was ‘misrepresented by the seller’ and I literally had to
start him all over again,., so many holes in the training as a 10 year old.
For the past year, we have been working with a great instructor, as well,
a very nice trainer, who took him for 30 days, and he has really started to come around.
He’s not your ‘dead broke, been there/done that’, but he is really starting to be
A LOT more fun to ride.
Trust is everything with this horse.
He’d been handed around, misunderstood, overwhelmed, confused,
and I was afraid I was in over my head with him,.,
BUT now, he is becoming more FUN to ride.
It took A LOT of TIME, regaining his trust, and giving him the opportunity to learn at his own pace.
He’s really quite smart, and likes to over think, but just taking it slow, and asking him patiently until he finds the right answer
has been a formula for success with him.
Good luck with your horse.
Don’t give up on him,.,
I could not imagine my little horse going to another home
filled with misunderstanding, mistrust and fear.
Keep at it, its totally worth it.
Jmo
It sounds to me like your horse may not want to be ridden right now. That is okay, just show your horse a lot of love and it will trust you more someday.
One of my horse’s is similar to yours - not the same problems exactly, but green, difficult to ride and a bit dangerous. We decided to throw him out to pasture for the winter in hopes that he will mature (he’s 6), as well as find his brain out there. I hope it helps. It certainly cant hurt.
Generally speaking, horses that need a lot of gadgets and schooling are one of two things, “difficult” horses or “untrustworthy” horses. Difficult being used to mean EITHER physically or mentally exhausting.
[QUOTE=centerline;8426306]To top it off, he was laid up for several weeks, and has been a disaster being brought back–he will go from soft and quiet to a nightmare over something like a canter transition.
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This is actually something pretty common for horses being brought back after lay-up. I know this may sound crass but are you drugging him? Horses being brought back to work are NOT themselves, they are uncontrollable raging monsters. Drugs are used as part of a SAFE RECOVERY for both horse and rider. It does not speak to your riding abilities if you can’t ride a horse fresh out of a stall for several weeks, some need to be drugged just to handle being stall bound. They just get a little batty and cross being locked up. Until the horse is back on full turnout and full work, generally, the advice is to drug.
[QUOTE=centerline;8426306]The behavior issues are sporadic–we have two or three good days, and then he’ll lose his fuzzy little mind over…well, nothing. His main issue is that he will get upset by something, and will start pulling like a freight train and buries his head between his knees, and just kind of goes, which is how we ended up running into the fence yesterday–it’s not even malicious so much as it’s like his brain goes out the window.
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Horses aren’t malicious, no animal is. But if a bear was prowling a neighborhood, it’d be relocated or destroyed. This is no different, some dangerous carnivores habitually find humans despite extrication and some horses repeatedly endanger human lives with dangerous behavior despite workload/training/handling/living situation/etc. If his brain is actually exiting and he’s bolting to the point of running into fixed solid objects, he’s going to kill himself doing those behaviors and take you down with him. Again, this probably has nothing to do about what he is or is not getting upset about. This has more to do with him RUNNING INTO A SOLID OBJECT. When horses stop behaving like horses, something is wrong. VERY WRONG. Please understand this is not a comment on you, this is not a comment on your trainer, this is a comment on the mental state of the horse.
It has something to do with the way their internals work, they may even have a tumor. Look at the amount of TB stallions that, were they not million dollar money makers (some making a million a day in breeding), would be euthanized for their dangerous behavior.
http://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/savage-mad-bad-stallions_topic16770_page4.html
These are stallions that are regularly handled by expert handlers whose jobs are to not get killed while moving the stallion from the paddock to the stall the breeding shed. These people are the best of the best at moving difficult horses and yet you’ve still got horses chasing grooms out of paddocks. It’s not because they are unhappy, they’ve got people to tend to their every need, these horses do not go wanting. In Ribot’s case it was a brain tumor that caused him to require solid wall “fencing” and made him “climb trees” in the paddock to the point his only tree had to be cut down. In other cases it’s breeding. And others, the horses just don’t have any sense of being a horse.
[QUOTE=centerline;8426306]I’m guessing this was the reason for all the gadgets in the first place.
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Bingo. They were there to keep you safe.
[QUOTE=centerline;8426306]I’ve given him the benefit of the doubt–I’ve had several saddle fitters check fit, vet checks from a really good clinic, (we even did a bone scan to rule out pain, though there was nothing the vets could find on xrays or in flexions/soundess exam–they thought I was crazy, and they were right, nothing was found).
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You’re not crazy, he is. I’m sorry that your vets thought you were crazy for chasing down every reason for the horse losing his marbles randomly and dangerously, that makes you feel more alone in this. They should be just as concerned that your horse is endangering your life, these behaviors are not normal and need to be addressed, if they cannot be corrected they need to be on board with any further decisions you may need to make (as you can see some have chosen to euthanize).
I want to apologize on this point because your vets have given you no reason for this horse to behave like this and nothing to help you prevent this behavior.
[QUOTE=centerline;8426306]It appears as if the problem is between his ears. I have had good help along the way, but I’ve determined that he is beyond my abilities, even in a solid training program.
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The fact that you have been able to determine this, means you have enough self awareness to know that this behavior is not normal, and not a normal “bad horse” behavior. It’s just very hard admitting it. I know you say you don’t have your hopes up, but please, please keep that feeling in the pit of your stomach in mind. That “something’s wrong” feeling when you get on a horse like that.
[QUOTE=centerline;8426306]As a last ditch effort he’s finally going to “Summer Camp” with a trainer I trust, and whom I have seen work horses through behavior far worse than he’s displaying, and produce a reasonably reliable horse in the end. My hope is that he can be fixed as well, and I can end up with a happy horse.
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Just know you might get a horse that is only happy not being ridden. You might have to re-develop your relationship with this horse as a non-riding relationship if you are intent on keeping him.
If you haven’t yet, start considering WHAT is setting him off in your body position. Are you asking for more flexion at the pole? Is he working over his back more? Less? Are you having him push more from behind? Is it one particular canter transition over another? These events may SEEM random but it may have some commonality. Sometimes putting weight on a horses back and asking them to move in a frame suddenly creates discomfort in all sorts of different places that it wouldn’t usually be and wouldn’t necessarily show up on a bone scan or flexion test. Maybe a myelogram? If the horse isn’t exploding until he is in a frame it could be a pinched nerve due to generally insignificant boney changes in the neck.
Anyway, although bolting isn’t the “worst” bad behavior, blindly running to the point of hitting a fixed structure adds a more complex element. I could imagine many worse behaviors than bolting, but not many worse than having no self preservation.
[QUOTE=centerline;8426306]I’m not looking for a miracle or a perfect horse–I’m looking to walk, trot and canter this horse without fearing for the safety of either one of us.
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You may always fear riding the horse, even if he does become relatively trustworthy. Even if this trainer can turn him around, it may be worth sending him along to someone else with full disclosure. Someone might not mind a “difficult” ride.
If you would like to enjoy your ride, it may be that parting ways will, inevitably be the best choice for both of you.
[QUOTE=centerline;8426306]I know that posting about this kind of thing is akin to opening an invitation to be judged, but I’m not looking for training tips or advice–what I’m hoping for is success stories to keep me going.
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I don’t mean to be rude, and there is no judgement from anyone here, just general worry for your safety. You, most likely, won’t find many success stories. Horses with an innate lack of self preservation CANNOT be fixed, most choose to euthanize or retire. Please don’t take this as piling on, you’re just asking for something that people cannot give. The only thing they can give is concern for your safety.
Just remember, it’s not you, it’s him. Whether he needs some mild sedation while continuing to recover from whatever had him laid up, or if he really is sick in the head… there is something wrong with HIM. You are no less of a rider for not being capable of handling a horse without self preservation.
You are doing all you can to assess if the horse is actually rideable or damaged goods. Just don’t be surprised if he comes up still twisted in the head on the other side.
I’m sorry you are going through this.
