Belmont thread

[Sunny_s_Mom]

[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;3275750]
I doubt you will find many people invloved in racing who are opposed to syndicates/partnerships. Most would agree that they are great for racing and getting people involved in the sport. Motivator who won the Derby a few years ago was owned by a syndicate of 280 odd people (most of whom tried to cram into the winners cirlce at Epsom!!).

People do seem to have suspect view of IEAH, because of the charachters invovled and their attitude and approach. Nothing against syndicates.[/QUOTE]

Ok that makes more sense!

[WB_Mom]

I think only BB will ever know exactly what happened, and he’s not talking! No matter what, you never know what will happen. What a roller coaster ride for the sport!
I was lucky enough to watch 3 triple crown winners in the 70’s. My fav was always Secretariat - IMHO NO COMPARISON to any other horse in recent history.
There’s always next year…

[WhiteCamry]

Dunno if anyone else has noticed …

Dunno if anyone else has noticed, but Da’Tara is the first Godolphin to win a TC race since War Admiral. In fact, he’s descended from Man o’War through War Relic.

If nothing else, it shows there are still non-Phalaris lines still running. All we need are more of the kind of races they win.

Personally, I’d like to see DT’s owners point him at the longer races, even if it means shipping him overseas. The only 12+f races this side of the Atlantic with any worthwhile $$$ in which he could run are the BC Turf, the San Juan Capistrano and the Brooklyn H, assuming NYRA doesn’t chicken out and shrink the latter back to 9f.

[Pronzini]

@WhiteCamry;3275819

Dunno if anyone else has noticed, but Da’Tara is the first Godolphin to win a TC race since War Admiral. In fact, he’s descended from Man o’War through War Relic.

And it’s nice that Tiznow is doing as well as he is. Somehow that sireline holds on by the thinnest of threads.

[forward_ride]

Perhaps it was the heat? To me it looked like his heart just wasn’t in it for the last 3/4 or 1/2 mile.

I have a OTTB who I ride in jumpers. Generally he is very honest, never refuses or anything. Once at a show we were warming up & man it was like 99 degrees out. So he just refused a few fences. Really honest refusal, like he ignored my leg & just kinda slowed up (and these were like 4 foot fences). It seemed as though he was just rank. So then we head into the covered, breezy arena & have a wonderful round. Coming out, I really realized that he was just like, what am i doing these dumb warm-up fences for, it’s sooo hot, let’s just do this.

Moral of the story: I think TBs are smart. A lot smarter than we give them credit for.

Then again, I really don’t think they can just retire BB off this race. I think it’s called too much into question. It’s one thing if he just wasn’t into it on that particular day. It’s a whole other thing if he just doesn’t have what it takes in the long haul.

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=forward ride;3275888]
Then again, I really don’t think they can just retire BB off this race. I think it’s called too much into question. It’s one thing if he just wasn’t into it on that particular day. It’s a whole other thing if he just doesn’t have what it takes in the long haul.[/QUOTE]

So they should run him again and take the chance of proving he doesn’t have what it takes? That would be financial suicide.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

@Laurierace;3275926

So they should run him again and take the chance of proving he doesn’t have what it takes? That would be financial suicide.

Well he hasn’t exactly covered himself in glory with Saturday’s performance. I think retiring him now is pretty dicey, he’ll be forever known as the Big Phoney. Granted a further loss would reinforce that opinion, but a win in the Travers etc would do a lot to redeem his reputation.
I guess it’s a gamble, but his $50m valuation took a big hit in the Belmont and i’m sure they have one eye on getting that back.

[grayarabs]

Well the Travers is in hot August - perhaps a factor in that decision.
I would think they would wait until Breeder’s Cup.

Here again - after the Belmont and no TC winner - I always think - well horses like BB ran all three legs - the others not. I know - they are separate races - and TC winners should beat “all comers” - but it still irks me just a bit - that a fresher horse comes into the Belmont and wins the race. Granted - didn’t Da’ Tara race on Preakness day - another race? Still he did not run three races in 5 weeks - none of the others did either as far as I can tell. Also considering that horses peak. Perhaps BB peaked in the Preakness - and Da’ Tara in the Belmont.

[slp]

Interesting/Fun Fact

The Detroit Red Wings just won the Stanley Cup for the 11th time last week. In each of the last 4 times the Wings have won the cup, there has been a horse attempting to win the Triple Crown after winning both the Derby and the Preakness, only to be defeated at Belmont.
1997 - Silver Charm
1998 - Real Quiet
2002 - War Emblem
2008 - Big Brown

Coincidence? I don’t know…

[Glimmerglass]

Travers Stakes

Sad but true, the Travers in recent years has been marked by thin fields and a landscape of entry names mostly who never went the TC route. Yes, Street Sense and Birdstone are recent winners. By comparison it is the Haskell Invitational (just weeks before) which gets more of the names familiar to the average fan.

Year after year people fail to recognize that a horse in the spring is not the same as the late summer. Some mature, some regress, and some enjoying life under the radar become monsters. I wouldn’t expect the Big Brown from the Preakness to romp unchallenged at Saratoga.

The fastest time EVER (and this is a race that dates to 1864; although only at the current distance since 1904) for that 1 1/4 mi distance is still to this day: General Assembly at 2:00.00 in 1979. The impecable dirt surface of Spa is rarely super fast and the temps rarely cool on ‘the big day’. If your man likes to perform only on rock hard surfaces and in cool temps I suggest looking elsewhere

Worth noting again this will be the 139th Travers as presented by Shadwell Farm

[Frank_B]

Associated Press Big Brown article:

[hessy35]

[QUOTE=grayarabs;3275970]
Well the Travers is in hot August - perhaps a factor in that decision.
I would think they would wait until Breeder’s Cup.

Here again - after the Belmont and no TC winner - I always think - well horses like BB ran all three legs - the others not. I know - they are separate races - and TC winners should beat “all comers” - but it still irks me just a bit - that a fresher horse comes into the Belmont and wins the race. Granted - didn’t Da’ Tara race on Preakness day - another race? Still he did not run three races in 5 weeks - none of the others did either as far as I can tell. Also considering that horses peak. Perhaps BB peaked in the Preakness - and Da’ Tara in the Belmont.[/QUOTE]

The twist to this is that we hit a record high on Saturday. It is RARELY that hot in June. Any other time BB would have had a normal temp…

[forward_ride]

once again…global warming ruins the day!

(tongue and cheek of course)

[Coral]

[QUOTE=Frank B;3276013]
Associated Press Big Brown article:[/QUOTE]

Hmm, some very interesting information in there:

On the advice of Hall of Fame trainer Bobby Frankel, Dutrow had said he was going to reduce Big Brown’s dose of electrolytes, which are salts such as sodium, chloride and potassium that help prevent dehydration. It wasn’t clear whether he followed through on that plan before the Belmont.

Big Brown was taking Lasix, a legal anti-bleeding medication that can cause a horse to become dehydrated. Highs were in the 90s and there was oppressive humidity Saturday. Several horses throughout the day were sweating excessively and needed to be cooled off with buckets of water and sprayed with hoses after they ran.

Even after he stopped he didn’t look like he was sweating as much as he should be to my eye. If you look at the difference between BB and the other horses after the finish he’s clearly much less wet than they are. It baffles me why they would want to decrease his electrolytes on a day like Saturday was, it makes no sense whatsoever. Dehydration would certainly explain his failure to “Go” when he was told and his cranky behavior overall.

[cloudyandcallie]

war relic

[QUOTE=WhiteCamry;3275819]
Dunno if anyone else has noticed, but Da’Tara is the first Godolphin to win a TC race since War Admiral. In fact, he’s descended from Man o’War through War Relic.

If nothing else, it shows there are still non-Phalaris lines still running. All we need are more of the kind of races they win.

Personally, I’d like to see DT’s owners point him at the longer races, even if it means shipping him overseas. The only 12+f races this side of the Atlantic with any worthwhile $$$ in which he could run are the BC Turf, the San Juan Capistrano and the Brooklyn H, assuming NYRA doesn’t chicken out and shrink the latter back to 9f.[/QUOTE]

thanks for that information on War Relic. My WB imported from Germany, goes back to Man O’War thru War Relic. someone must have gotten exported to europe sometime in that line. We’re a bit slower than War Relic though.
USA today said today that BB might meet Curlin in Calif. in the fall now that would be interesting.

[caffeinated]

@slp;3275976

The Detroit Red Wings just won the Stanley Cup for the 11th time last week. In each of the last 4 times the Wings have won the cup, there has been a horse attempting to win the Triple Crown after winning both the Derby and the Preakness, only to be defeated at Belmont.
1997 - Silver Charm
1998 - Real Quiet
2002 - War Emblem
2008 - Big Brown

Coincidence? I don’t know…

heh.

And the Montreal Canadiens won in '73, '77, and '78.

(Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Affirmed)

The Montreal Canadiens also won in '46 (Assault).

(1948, it was Toronto, but still a Canadian team.)

probably also a coincidence, but maybe I should pay more attention to hockey. LOL

[cloudyandcallie]

great horses

[QUOTE=Iride;3275424]
Nancy has a point. Not to ever second guess KD, it is conceivable that in this case, he might have let him out a little earlier, especially if one bases it on the belief that he’s the strongest entry of the group by far. According to a vet I know who’s worked on BB in the past, it is very true that the horse historically has NOT liked or worked well in high heat and he believes that to be a major factor of sorts. I work with several who are the same - simply, they’re not hot weather horses. Some don’t care or are so used to relentless KY heat (as an example). The high heat and humidity happened overnight, too, with no chance for the horses to acclimate. But to get back to Nancy, I think that’s possible too however you can also say he was ridden that way previously and more than prevailed. Glimmerglass is right, the horse is not a machine, and it had an off day regardless of the reasons. He has a right to that. Also the pressures were immense and perhaps it was palpable to him. TB’s are so incredibly sensitive and keen.

I think there will be endless speculation, most understandably so; look the TC is something that should NOT be easily won, should be saved for the “greats,” to use that oft-cited word, but I also think that after 30 dry years it is plain as day that we are just not breeding horses that can do it anymore.[/QUOTE]

can’t remember who said it, but years ago one race horse trainer said after his horse lost one of the TC races, in the rain, that great horses win in the mud as well as on fast tracks. and great horses should win in the heat also, if that analogy is correct. that’s why the TC is so hard to win,. great horses overcome getting boxed in, stumbling at the start, and win. That’s why we were all so startled that Spectacular Bid lost in 1979. Some horses don’t like bring rated and don’t like having dirt in their faces, and those horses don’t win the TC if they let it get to them. I want a filly to win.

[Glimmerglass]

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;3276168]
USA today said today that BB might meet Curlin in Calif. in the fall[/QUOTE]

::snort:: only if Curlin was given a “handicap” of 112lbs

[cloudyandcallie]

huh?

[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;3272237]
Owners split the purse for 3rd and 4th places (i.e they add them both and split them in half). Similar thing with bettors, bettors with both horses on their tickets get paid, which will mean a smaller payout.
I have no idea what percentage of races have deadheats for any of the placings, but it happens.[/QUOTE]

??? and the 4th purse was???

[Glimmerglass]

Follow up bits from the Belmont - as reported by the Daily Racing Form Monday afternoon

Sounds like some bad blood now within the BB camp

“Getting the horse from the gate to the first turn like that is not the way to play the game,” Dutrow said. “A lot of people say that it really confuses the horse. I’m sure he didn’t have [any] idea what the hell was going on going into the first turn the way [Desormeaux] was switching him all over the damn track. I don’t know what he was doing. Did he tell you what he was doing?”

As of Monday, Dutrow and Desormeaux had not spoken. Dutrow was upset that Desormeaux didn’t come by the barn after the race to check on the horse, saying, “a lot of people came back to the barn - a lot of people - Desormeaux wasn’t one of them.”

“With all due respect to Mr. Dutrow, my wife and I spoke with an IEAH partner [Nick Sallusto] and I was assured the horse was all right,” Desormeaux said. “I was in the jocks’ room watching Mr. Dutrow at the barn [on TV], and in my observation he needed some quiet time, some time to think.”

Desormeaux spoke by phone Sunday morning with Iavarone and got the impression “they were thrilled with my actions,” Desormeaux said.

On Monday, Iavarone said he was not pointing fingers at Desormeaux for Big Brown’s defeat. “Let’s not call it textbook,” Iavarone said when asked what he thought about the ride, “but he had a target on his back. I’m not going to sit out here and say he’s the reason that he got beat.”

As for Saratoga …

[Zito] said that both Da’ Tara and Anak Nakal would be pointed to the Travers, with Da’ Tara possibly running in the Jim Dandy on July 26 beforehand.

Trainer David Carroll said he is pointing Denis of Cork to the Travers, with a start in either the Jim Dandy or Haskell Invitational on Aug. 3. Dallas Stewart, trainer of Macho Again, said the Jim Dandy or West Virginia Derby are his colt’s options.

Tale of Ekati, who finished sixth in the Belmont, came out of the race with a 3- to 3 1/2-inch gash in his right hind foot, said Robin Smullen, assistant to trainer Barclay Tagg. She believes it was caused by Big Brown when he crossed over entering the first turn

Smullen said she felt Tale of Ekati could still make a race like the Jim Dandy.